Can someone explain this?

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Hi! First time I believe I've been on this forum and love all the vines and blooms posted here! WOW!

I have a question and am hoping someone can give me an answer or point me to a thread that might give me an explanation. Thanks in advance!

I grew out a seed for Passiflora incarnata. Instead of purple blooms, I am getting solid white blooms. I am not the only one who claims to have had this happen. From http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=8697034
Quoted from patootie:
"I notice that whenever I see a maypop (incarnata), theres usuallly a white passi growing close by.
The same is true here. A white passi, sub peltata? growing side by side with incarnata.
A former friend had both passi's growing in her wooded areas. My local $ store also sports both passi's.
Would love to know how and why this happens."

Here is a photo of my Passiflora incarnata which should be labeled "alba"?

This message was edited Jul 17, 2011 7:36 AM

Thumbnail by beckygardener
Dover, NJ

Becky, thats an Alba--you must have gotten mis-labeled seed. I don't think white incarnatas are all that common. If you want the purple one, I'll have lots of seed later this fall if you can wait.

Mark

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Mark - Thanks for replying. I have incarnata with purple flowers and now I have this white one, too! I believe the white one came from a seed of the purple one. But I can't be sure. I was expecting purple incarnata. Is it possible to get a white flowering vine from the purple incarnata seeds? Such as a recessive gene?

Thank you for the generous and kind offer, but I am not looking for seeds, just an answer to the possibility of getting a white flower from a purple P. incarnata flower seed.

Dover, NJ

Hi Becky,

Wild fruits (and garden grown ones too) are typically pollinated by carpenter bees which arrived loaded with pollen from many different flowers. So the seed you got may have a few white flower seeds in it. Unless the seed seller bagged their flowers and did a controlled pollination, you cant be sure that your seed will be like the mother parent. I am doing some experiments now on P. incarnata seed viability, and I can tell you that the carpenter bees are very persistent in trying to get to the flowers. It is an absoute must to bag the flowers with netting (and tie up the netting so there are no spaces) to keep them away. I'm not sure about the genetics, but given that white flowers are not common, it could certainly be a recessive gene. If I had more room I'd love to get a root cutting or regular cutting, but I really don't have any room.

Mark

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Mark - Not other gardeners in my area grow passiflora. And most people didn't even know there were white blooming Passifloras! I am definitely wondering if the white is a recessive gene. Especially since I am not the only one experiencing this with my seeds. I certainly don't mind the white. In fact, I think they are just as beautiful as the purple blooming I. incarnata. I was just really curious if anyone was familiar with this happening and had an explanation. :-) Thanks so much for replying to my question!!!

Edited to add:

I wonder what the seeds of the white might produce? Certainly worth growing a few to find out. Though I do have purple I. incarnata growing in my yard, too. So that probably wouldn't be an accurate self-pollinating F1. Bees could very well cross those two!

This message was edited Jul 20, 2011 9:37 PM

Dover, NJ

Its been a long time since I had genetics in college, so lets see if I can get this right. If the white flower gene is a recessive gene (w) and purple is dominant (P), then each seed that grows into a white flower plant has to have the white gene from both parents. The white recessive gene can be in the population but infrequently expressed. The number of plants in your area with all white flowers will ultimately depend on the frequency of the white flower gene/allele in the population. For example, maybe 10 percent of Maypop plants in your area have Pw genetics (these would produce purple flowers, but still have the white gene). In a plant with Pw genetics, half of the pollen and ova will have the white flower gene. You would still have to get 2 plants in your area with the white gene to pollenate each other--then 25% of seeds from such a pollenation would be ww, and produce a plant with all white flowers. If 10 percent of local plants are Pw, then on average you need 20 different local plants to be pollenating one another to have a chance at producing seeds that will grow into plants with all white flowers. So again, the overall prevalence of white flower plants will depend on the overall frequency of the white flower gene in the population. I'm sure this varies geographically.

If the white gene is recessive, then crosses of 2 plants with all white flowers should yield all seeds with white flower genes. Crosses of your white flower plant with other local purple flower plants will probably produce mostly purple flower plants, but this depends on how many plants in your area carry the white gene.

One interesting thing that I am finding in my experiments with P. incarnata, is that it is actually somewhat difficult to get successful pollenations. I am not sure why this is the case. You would think that every time you used a paint brush to transfer pollen between 2 different incarnata plants, it ought to be successful 100% of the time, but that is far from the case. At first I thought maybe it was a time of year thing with the earliest flowers maybe having sterile pollen. The main fruit drop in my area occurs throughout the month of September, and given the average of 8 weeks from pollenation to fruit drop, this means that July pollenations should be more successful than June pollenations (I was getting 10% success in June). But so far July hasn't been a whole lot better. I have had better success on cloudy/rainy days, so it may be a temperature thing (its been hotter than usual this year). In addition, I have found that seeds from locally collected fruit (2 different locations) have a low germination rate (in some cases zero). I have so far collected 7 different incarnata plants from 3 different states, and I'm hoping to add another 4 to 6 before the summer is over. I should get some interesting results over the next 2 years, and might possibly shed some light on why it is so difficult to germinate passie seeds.

Mark

Dover, NJ

Oh and btw, I'd really like to get some incarnata plants from Florida--if anyone knows where some are growing I'd appreciate the tip. I'd hate to drive all the way over there and go on a wild goose chase. Thanks!

Mark

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Mark - Interesting information on genetics. I don't know if there are white Passiflora's around my area or not. I've never seen any. My original seeds came from Texas several years ago. I didn't get a good germination rate. But I got enough seeds that I got at least a few sprouts and vines. The white bloomer came from a purple blooming mother vine. I don't think any seeds were mixed. And I was definitely expecting purple blooms and was quite surprised to see white instead! LOL!

Does my white look like I. incarnata "alba" or a cross of something else? I am not as educated about Passifloras as you and others. Which is why I came here to find out more.

Your experiment sounds pretty cool. Good luck! I. incarnata vines from Florida? Have you tried any online stores located in Florida? My purple incarnata did not originate here.

I had read something about the fertility and pollination of Passifloras. I don't think some of them are as easy to pollinate as you might think. I have tried hand-pollinating too and have had no such luck.

On the otherhand, my "aurantia" Passiflora seems to produce a small fruit (seeds) from every bloom! But the blooms stay open about a week, so that gives the bugs plenty of time to do their pollinating.

West Des Moines, IA

Mark:

I have been growing plants of incarnata alba and the standard purple incarnata for many years here in zone 5. My purple form is from Florida while my alba originated in Virginia. I made some props earlier this spring and the plants have been flowering for the past 10 days in 4-5 inch pots. I get fruit produced every year with varying seed production.

Through the advice of many hybridizers and personal research I found that the time of day (after initial flower opening), temperature, and humidity play a significant role with the receptiveness of the stigmatic surface and pollen viability.

My best results seem to come with transferring pollen about late morning to noon. The month of September was optimal since by that time the more extreme heat and humidity had passed and I saw the most significant fruit production. I only wish I had an extra 4-6 weeks for additional fruit crops.

If any of you have Passiflora Elizabeth use it as the female parent with incarnata or incarnata alba....the fruit produced is about the size of a mango you purchase in the grocery store and the pulp is very sweet.

If you want some incarnata just send me a DG mail. I am still trying to find a plant or two of coriacea with the mottled foliage if someone can help me out.

Trevor

Dover, NJ

Hi Trevor,

I am beginning to suspect that high heat inhibits successful pollenation, so I am now trying to shade my flowers (not always easy to do). I have heard that you have to wait for the stigmae to bend down before pollenating, so I try to do that when possible. Local incarnata here opens between 12:30 and 1:30 p.m. My Pennsylvania incarnata is the earliest--it opens between 11:00 and noon. I have successfully pollenated as late as 7:00 p.m., which again makes me think that high heat inhibits pollenation.
I wonder about humidity also--we typically have high humidity until the fall arrives. One thing that I would love to know is how to dry and store pollen so that it stays viable for more than a few days. Right now, what I do is to transfer it to a small paintbrush, and let that sit inside (in the AC and lower than outside humidity). It only seems to be viable for a few days, although my pollenation attempts are so hit or miss right now that it might actually be viable longer. Perhaps it needs to be stored at a slightly higher humidity level to stay viable. When left on the anthers it seems to be viable only until the next day.
Interesting tip on the Elizabeth--I don't have one, but if it makes fruit that big maybe I should get one.

Mark

Photo shows some success results obtained during a 4 day period of cloudy/rainey weather:

Thumbnail by LouisianaMark

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