Manure, chem ferts and salts conversaion

Please continue the discussion from http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1189426 I am currently gardening in the high desert. It is salty sand down at least 10 feet, having once been an ocean floor. Although one can't taste it, my well water is also salty. I have been slowly reclaiming some of the desert with the help of a flock of chickens and their composted chickie-poo plus bedding (and now with the assistance of duckie-poo). My fowl eat commercial layer feed and as much veggies and veggie scraps as they can get away with. Which in the summer is probably about 1/3 of their diet. The weeds have told me I am definitely doing something right as they try to grow with abandon anywhere I have amended the sand. So far, everything is healthy, and I try to deep water to help leach salts at least once a month (it never rains enough at one time to do it, although we've had enough snow the last few years to do so at least once each the spring.) I am curious for opinions on how long it will be before I should stop adding composted chickie/duckie poo + pine shavings and switch to pure vegetative compost, or on opinions on how to maintain my fertility as the desert sun tends to burn away anything organic. This is my 5th season here, and every year things seem to be getting healthier, so far. Thanks in advance for any and all opinions. - Karla

>> I try to deep water to help leach salts at least once a month (it never rains enough at one time to do it, although we've had enough snow the last few years to do so at least once each the spring.)

Ouch! I was thinking "but surely she has the greatest drainage in the world?" until you mentioned that there's almost no run-off due to lack of rain.

>> I am curious for opinions on how long it will be before I should stop adding composted chickie/duckie poo + pine shavings and switch to pure vegetative compost, or on opinions on how to maintain my fertility as the desert sun tends to burn away anything organic. This is my 5th season here, and every year things seem to be getting healthier, so far.

I would think that, as long as you have the poo and pine available, you should keep compoasting it and adding it to the soil. I think that "sandy" means "well-aerated", and warm well-aerated soil can probably digest organic matter faster than you can haul it from pile to beds.

Perhaps, if your soil becomes SO organic that it's just squishy and too wet for hours after waterng, you did succeed in getting too much organic matter into it. Has your sand really made it all the way from "drains too fast" to "holds too much water"?

You might try, in one area, for one year, holding back on the rapid addition of compost. My guess is that sandy soil can reduce 20% OM to 5% OM in one year. Or do your pine shavings take several years to decompose even in sandy soil?

But I bet your concern about salinity is very well-founded. If the annual Spring flush doesn't carry solutes fully away to something that drains into ground water and hence ultimately a river or ocean, it is building up somewhere.

I guess you have a tradeoff between needed organic matter and (possibly excessive) salts. If there's an inexpensive soil test available, maybe they could monitor the balance of usefull minerals to unwanted ions like sodium and chloride. If you're salinizing but still need to keep adding OM, maybe use more pine shavings and less poo in your compost heap. And keep watering deeply!

>> currently gardening in the high desert. It is salty sand down at least 10 feet, having once been an ocean floor.

I see that it was that way before you arrived! Do you use raised beds? Are you on a slope?

Hopefully global climate change will give you a little more rainfall.

Corey

Karla, I don't believe that you should ever stop adding composted manure to your garden because it is always breaking down and giving much needed nutrients to your vegetables. It would be desirable to add vegetative compost too along with the manure. Where I live in Vermont many people try to get composted plant matter and or manure into their gardens every year. Many people have gardens higher than the surrounding soil because they've added so much compost every year that over time it s-l-o-w-l-y rises. Also, sandy soil being deep watered would tend to leach out nutrients more quickly than a humus rich soil. I'm would also think that adding compost over time would make your garden soil less salty as the ratio of humus to sand increases.

You might look into planting winter rye in the fall when your garden is done for the year. Besides the tops of the winter rye it also has a very extensive root system that will add a lot of vegetative matter when you till it under in the spring. It sounds like you've been doing a lot of hard work to improve your sandy soil. Good luck to you

Thanks for the info, all. I believe the county extension will do a soil test for free or cheap.

So far, everything is draining (except in an area where I discovered caliche - veggies don't like it, but the morning glories seem to like it there ok), and nothing is acting unhappy, so I will continue adding my compost. After one summer season, one cannot find any but the biggest pieces of pine. Chicken feathers disappear in less time than that. I am thinking the sand and the 90*F+ temps are cooking the organics real well. And what doesn't get cooked often gets blown away. This is way different than gardening in Ca or Ga.

I found some old alsikes (sp) clover seed in a box (stored in a hot shed for 5 years), and randomly spread it around, figuring, at the least, it would decompose. To my delight, it is growing abundantly. I am still about 2 1/2 to 3 months from my first frost - do you think I still have time to plant winter rye? And if I let it go to seed, do you think my chickens would enjoy eating the seed and turning it under in the spring? They love digging up stuff and the ducks like to trample things.

It is flat here. I have 3 raised beds (4' x 8') with raised sides that keep out wind and get a cover over them for early and late greens and other things that I want to baby. I planted out about 300 cloves of garlic last fall in beds in the ground that had compost mixed into it six months prior and was left fallow (but watered during the summer and weeded) (just harvested - no vampires here!). Even with 15 chickens and 3 ducks, I don't have enough compost to make raised beds, so I just rotate which beds get the next load. The 3 raised beds that I have have a mix of bought dirt, sand and compost. That proved to be way too expensive. So while pine shavings cost almost as much as bagged compost from HD or Lowes, I get double or triple duty out of it: fowl bedding, compost, and mulch.

I do a deep clean of the coop every 2-3 months (about the time the last batch is done composting). 10 - 5 gal buckets = 1 wheel barrel full. 10 wheel barrels full cleans the coop down to the floor and fills my compost enclosure (chicken wire lined with old feed bags). I water the compost more than the garden. It stinks, but it gets nice and hot. When done, it is about 4 wheel barrels full. I add one wheel barrel full to one 4 x 8 ft plot of dirt and rotate clockwise around the garden, so every bed on the ground gets done about once a year. In the summer I also use about one wheel barrel full to mulch, mulch, mulch and mulch some more.

I think I may be over watering this year as the ground now actually holds water (still well draining, but no longer a sieve). I am trying to wean myself back to twice a week, really deep. Nearly everything looks somewhat droopy in the late afternoon, but they seem to perk up by the middle of the night (I garden by moon light a lot) and are looking happy in the morning.

So I think I shall get a soil test done, and continue what I'm doing until it looks like I should be doing something else. Thanks for your input. Karla

>> I am still about 2 1/2 to 3 months from my first frost - do you think I still have time to plant winter rye?

>> If that's the same stuff as "fall rye" , definitely yes in the coastal PNW. There, even 1 month before 'vernalization' is enough to get it established for our mild winter. I don't know whether it will go all the way to seed before frost, but 2-3 months will get it plenty well established.

>> I have 3 raised beds (4' x 8') with raised sides that keep out wind and get a cover over them for early and late greens and other things that I want to baby.

Sweet! Are you able to flip the cover on and off for days and nights? Or do you just open flaps?

Corey

Covers off and on. I'd love to have something automated, but not there yet. Still, any green in the desert works for me! It's all one grand experiment. :-)

In zone 4 where I live, people generally plant winter rye in October after a killing frost has ended gardening. That way it gets established before the snow flies. In spring it will start to grow again and can be plowed under when you are ready to plant. I wouldn't let it go to seed because you'd have rye seed competing with vegetable seeds. I try to turn it under a couple of weeks before planting so it has enough time to shrivel up and compost a little. If you are turning it over by hand I would cut up the rye with a mower or a trimmer a few times. This should make the job easier. Good luck.

Thanks for the info on the Rye, HelenVT. We usually get our first killing frost Mid-October, and then have about 4 - 5 more weeks of frost free weather before the cold settles in. My chickens and ducks love grass, so I bet they would enjoy scratching around after I did the initial cutting and before turning it under. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, my time line would be something like

Early October, let the chickens ransack the garden as usual
Plant out garlic after the chickens have been banished
After killing frost, sow winter rye everywhere except my garlic beds
4 weeks before anticipated last frost, cut the rye and let birds scratch around and eat it
The birds tear things up pretty good, but when they are done, hand-turn whatever is left
At the same time, apply and turn in the latest batch of finished chickie-poo bedding compost
Let sit 2-3 weeks
Plant

Thanks again!

(Note sand in picture. That is sand that has blown in and is covering the mulch of composted chickie-poo bedding. Sometimes the sand that blows in gets to be an inch or more deep. Maybe I should plant winter rye outside the garden to help hold the sand down - cut it and not let it go to seed, but not turn it under, either. I wonder if it will grow in pure sand?)

Your timeline looks good to me. I'm not sure if winter rye will grow in pure sand, but your local extension service would be able to tell you. My garden has clay soil. A pottery company used to get clay for their pots some where near me! Over 20 years it's gotten better, but it always needs improving. Too bad we couldn't somehow mix our garden soils.

I'm jealous of your nutrient dense chicken manure as I only have access to horse manure. However, any manure is better than none!

My husband thinks I got chickens for their eggs and because they are cute - I did - BUT, I some days I think the compost is really why I love them so ;-)

I enjoy my chickens composting prowess as well! They are pretty good at keeping the bugs and weeds down as well. They don't always know the differance between a weed and a desirable plant. They simply desire to eat it all.

margocstn, how goes it with chickens in Savannah? My middle one was born on the south side at St. Mary's - way before the Barns and Noble and Bass Pro Shops. I worked for M&M markets over 20 years ago... anyway, I must agree that chickens were "born to eat!"

Clover seems to be thriving in sandy areas that I have not really amended yet. The chickens are hoping I give them some once the stands become more established. I'm on business travel right now, but I have ordered some rye, so we shall see how that experiment goes.

They are fine, thanks for asking! I got rid of 2 the other day so now I have 4 large layers and one little banty. It's hot here but I have a couple fans in their coop and let them rest in the shade of the azalea bed after I wet it down.

Someone got in trouble with some chickens out on wilmington island, and then it was found that paula deen had chickens too. Somehow it got turned into a rumor that you couldn't have chickens but that's not the case. There was some inconsistancies between county rules and city rules. We can have chickens.

My soil tested borderline high in salts, so I have to be careful with soil management, too. I have chalky clay instead of sand - but I've gardened in sand before, and I think sand is more difficult than clay in the long-term.

Manure - thoroughly composted is always better than fresh - but in a dry climate, composting probably won't leach out the salts. So you have to look at the salt content of the fresh manure, which has a lot to do with the salt content of the animals diet. You are much better off with poultry than animals that need salt in their diet. Dairy manure is probably the worst - it usually does serious damage to the already salty soils in this area.

Increasing organic matter is always a good idea, and it does decrease the ratio of salt to soil. Hot sand will use up a lot of organic matter, you will never be done adding it. However, plants can contain salt, too, especially native salt tolerant plants. Don't compost anything that will grow out on the salt flats - here that is Atriplex aptly called Salt Bush.

I had an extension fact sheet on salt and vegetables, but I can't find it. But I can give part of the information from my notes: peas, radishes, onions and carrots have very poor salt tolerance, so you can use them for indicator plants for problem areas. I have Swiss Chard listed as the veggie with the best salt tolerance, so it would be your other indicator plant, it should do better than the peas, onions, etc if the problem is salt. If you don't grow Chard, its cousins beets & spinach along with tomatoes and squash have moderate salt tolerance.

Still can't find the fact sheet I want, but here is another one:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/00503.pdf

Kmom, What do you use for bedding in your chicken coop? My husband also thinks I got the hens for the eggs....Chickens are a multi purpose treasure! Fun to watch, fresh eggs, the best manure that's easy to clean, bug eaters and delicious chicken soup. Seriously, what can be better!?

>> peas, radishes, onions and carrots have very poor salt tolerance, so you can use them for indicator plants for problem areas. I have Swiss Chard listed as the veggie with the best salt tolerance, so it would be your other indicator plant, it should do better than the peas, onions, etc if the problem is salt. If you don't grow Chard, its cousins beets & spinach along with tomatoes and squash have moderate salt tolerance.

Thanks, that is really usefull!

Corey

Hi, all ~

I bed my chickies in pine shavings. I swear I water the compost pile as much or more than the garden. It's so hot and dry here. I couldn't do that if we weren't on a well. The water charges would be fearsome!

County water came through our area a few years ago and they always have a plan to force you into signing up for their water. "If you don't hook up now it will cost you a lot more to do it later"is the statement that they used. Of course I don't want to be dependent on a water company and kept my well and told them I'll take the risk. :) Guess what!? My neighbors who tried to convince me to get the county water are steamed now because of the cost of their water. Doing laundry for 4 persons for the month costs big bucks let alone trying to keep your garden and animals watered. I'm soooo happy that I kept my well!

I've started leaning paving stones aginst my little compost heap so the edges stay wetter. (The hose doesn;t reach that far).

Also, I'm pulling up some Bok Choy one head at a time, it's spoiled by slugs and gotten tough. I pull it gradually so i always have some big leaves to slap around the compost heap, hoolding water in.

Next year i may plant some Chard for just that reason - it gets big and the slugs like it less.

Corey

Corey - you need chickens! They will be happy to devour ruined bok choy - along with the slugs on them!

I've also been told that I need a flock of attack geese.

I believe it, but they would clash with the teeny-tiny yard, dense-pack neighbors and general four-line highway and used-car-lot ambience.

I had GREAT Bok Choy for two years in a row, but not this year. All Brassicas suffered this year. Cold weather? Soil diseases accumulating? Planted at the wrong time, both times?

Next year I need to give that bed a rest and plant them, if anywhere, somewhere else. and get more compost into that bed and every bed. But they need sun!

Corey

IowaAnn, unless you're actually saying they would destroy your well, any semi-competent plumber should be able to plumb a few outside-only lines from your pump. The municipalities just need to be reassured you're not mixing their treated water with your well water that could back up into the feeder lines and possibly contaminate the water down the line. There are a number of homeowners across town from me who have done just that - owners of older properties that have gradually been surrounded by roads and housing developments, where the shallow groundwater quality has deteriorated a bit but is still fine for the lawn and garden.

There were stipulations that once you made the choice of County water you could still keep your well but if something happened to your well you would have to cap it and no longer be able to use it or get it fixed. Our well is deep and the water is excellent; My concern would be that THEIR water would contaminate MY well water...no thanks. : ) I prefer to live independent! They've already raised the prices of their water and it's not going to end. Once you're dependent on them they can raise the price anytime they want and you'll have no choice but to pay the price they ask for. Water is a major necessity just like oil and we all know how that's going.