Curling stems on Hibiscus

This is happening on all 3 of my hibiscus, I have a Kopper King, a Pink Swirl Luna, and a Fireball. This is the picture of the Kopper King. Does anyone know what is causing this??

Even the flowers have changed shape, again this is the Kopper King

I found three of these varmints deep down inside the flower but I don't think they ate a perfect star shaped flower.

Crissyr,

You have other issues as well. Count the petals in the picture of the Kopper King; I count six (6) petals not five (5) as there should be. I also noticed that you have holes in the leaves of your Hibiscus. What is the distribution of five and six petal flowers on your Kopper King. Look at my recent post on the Hardy Blue Hibiscus and drill down to the detail which includes pictures with a star formation similar to yours, but without six petals. .

Hardy Blue Hibiscus
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1183323/

First you need to treat your insect problem. I highly recommend the Bayer insecticide Imidacloprid which is a synthetic Nicotine Sulfate analog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid

BAYER ADVANCED 12-Month Tree and Shrub Protect and Feed Concentrate
http://www.bayeradvanced.com/tree-shrub-care/products/12-month-tree-shrub-protect-feed

I use the liquid concentrate form where the only active ingredient is Imidacloprid. I generally purchase the one quart size at Lowes. For fast growing species such as Hibiscus mutabilis, I apply it once a month otherwise this species would not survive in Nutley NJ. I have used in on Kopper King where it was well tolerated. Actually Bayer Advanced is well tolerated by Hardy Hibiscus and several African Hibiscus on which I have tested it. The product instructions are for trees and shrubs which set leaves once a year. Hibiscus are setting new leaves all the time which is why I recommend monthly treatments. And yes, I have used it on indoor Hibiscus with good results. Imidacloprid is also used as a flea killer for pets where it is in direct contact with the pet’s skin.

Once you have your insect problem under control, let’s see if your Hibiscus return to normal or continue to produce some very interesting flowers. Do you know how to root Hibiscus cuttings? It would be interesting if these changes are a reaction to the chemicals produced by the insect or some form of spontaneous stem mutation which has been reported in the literature for Hibiscus.

Mike

Michael that's a lot of info! LOL Thank you so much for posting all of these links. Are you saying that it's changing breeds, or maybe reverting back? I actually like the star shape better than the round shape.

My friend noticed 7 pedals, there's a small one sticking out on the lower right side.

LOL I was running out the door headed to work and saw the two pedals on the bottom as one big pedal. I'll go get some of the Bayer Advanced this weekend and keep you posted. I should have got pics of the other two hibiscus that are doing the same thing, but their leaves aren't eaten. My Pink Swirl Luna is half dead and my Fireball really looks bad, both are budding like crazy on what few stems they have to bud on.

I'm wondering if the blooms are going to be altered like the Kopper King is.

This message was edited Jun 17, 2011 10:37 AM

Crissyr,

You varmints could be hiding inside the stems of your Hibiscus which would explain the deformed stems. The Bayer Imidacloprid should make the varmints feel most unwelcome.

I have a series of questions for you and I need answerers for all them.

1. Are the stems on all your hardy Hibiscus deformed?
2. Are the Kopper King’s the only Hibiscus with the star flower form?
3. How many stems are on the Kopper King?
4. Are any of flowers on the Kopper King normal this year?
5. Was the Kopper King normal last year?

I can think of only two explanations for your star flower formation.

1. Your varmints are secreting a chemical which is causing flower deformation which will end once the varmints are eliminated.
2. Kopper King star flower is a Chimera Mutation and only parts of you Kopper King carry the mutation.

For a discussions of Chimera Mutations in Hibiscus see this post I made in April 2011.
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=8489225

I will not speculate any further until I have answers to my five questions. If you have a Chimera Mutation, once the upper plant dies this fall, the mutation will lost because the roots are most likely still normal. You must clone a stem cutting and get it growing on its own roots as quickly as possible so that it will survive the winter. If you have never cloned a Hibiscus before, is there anyone in your area who can help you with the cloning process? You have a limited amount of stems to work with and not much time. Do you know anyone who has an EZ-Clone machine? The nearest store to you with EZ-Clone technology is in Little Rock AR.

Mike

Michael you are so much help, you have no idea how much I appreciate it! Here are some answers:

1. Yes the stems are deformed, not wilted, there is no wilt on the plants at all.
2. The other two hibiscus haven't bloomed yet but they are budding, I'm waiting until they bloom to take more pics.
3. There were four big stems, one grew up and the other three grew vertical to the ground. I accidentally broke one of the ground ones off, so now there are three, the one standing up blooming, the other two grew vertical to the ground and they're not budding that I've noticed.
4. All of the blooms that I have seen are all stared shape, but I don't get to see them usually until I get home from work at 6:45pm, I don't have a lot of time to care for them and I think that's where I screwed up in the beginning.
5. They were all perfectly normal last year, I treated the sawflies and it was all good.

The Fireball is the smallest and is a year younger than the other two, I cut all of the curling off of it and it looks bad, has 4 stems with hardly any leaves. I'll get pics this weekend and post them for you on Monday. As for now...

This is the Kopper King on June 16, 2010

The Hibiscus you see below my Kopper King Tree (LOL) is the Pink Swirl Luna

I lied! My Fireball Hibiscus isn't in there yet, I got that last fall so this is it's first full season, it's the 3rd season for the other two.

This is the Kopper King last year, and now that I look at it real close I think I count 7 pedals. I don't have any 2009 pics of it and I didn't have them in 2008. I do have 2 Althea's that are fine, they're in a different flowerbed but only feet away. I don't know if that matters or if the same bugs like all the hibiscus or not.

This message was edited Jun 17, 2011 3:20 PM

Crissyr,

In the last picture of Kopper King, I also count seven (7) petals. Using the original digital photograph would you please post a blowup of just the flower and then a second blowup of the center of the flower to see if there are five (5) or seven (7) stigma on the style? The number of stigma in Hibiscus generally indicates how many chambers the seedpod contains. I am reviewing an old a magazine story (off-line) quoting C.S. Kennedy of Dublin Ohio on this subject. I would also like to see some stigma photographs of the new flower.

As you may have surmised by now, I am working on hardy Hibiscus with extra petals and I will be extremely embarrassed if my Kopper King has more than five (5) petals. I ran am image search in Google and everything which I inspected in detail appears to have five (5) petals.

Google Image: "Kopper King" Hibiscus
http://images.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=hp&q=%2522kopper+king%2522+hibiscus

Try to protect as many of the stalks of the Kopper King as you can, as some stalks may not express the star flower form. Get some bamboo stakes to support the stalks if possible. One good storm could wipeout this new flower.

Based on the photographic evidence from last year, which suggests that the Kopper King was ready mutating, this is starting to very much like a case of a Chimera Mutation which can be patented under US law.

Let’s solve your insect problem, protect the Hibiscus and then find you some professions assistance with the cloning process.

Mike

Mike everything I have researched all say that Kopper Kings have 5 pedals. I don't have my camera cord here at home because my internet is too slow to post pics (one of the cons of living out in the country) so I do it at work, but I have 2 more blooms today, one has 5 pedals and one has about 16 pedals and looks like a double, it's not at all right but it's absolutely gorgeous. The 5 pedal one has 5 stigma, the 16 or so pedal one has a stigma that's one big clumped together stigma. I got some close ups as I'm not a pro on enlarging photos, and to post them I'll have to be at work anyway.

I'm going to go out and spray but it's VERY windy today. We are so parched down here, it's been over 100* everyday since May 26th and the last time it rained was on May 25th.

I'm going to have to find something to tie up that one hibiscus limb, I haven't seen any bamboo around here at all and it is starting to lean, with the wind today I don't want to take any chances.
Yeah, one thing at a time, I have a full time job and I'm going to see my dad for 4 days next week, my husband will be home to take care of things so I'm not too worried.

Crissyr,

I should have mentioned that the Bayer Advanced with Imidacloprid is applied to the roots and adsorbed throughout the plant from there. It takes a little longer to act but it can’t be washed off and there is no place for the insects to hide. Ignoring the product instructions, I used Imidacloprid indoors this past winter and it was very effective. Bayer has insecticides with Imidacloprid and a faster acting chemical which I have used in the past but straight Imidacloprid gave me the best long term results. Even your 2010 photograph showed extensive leaf predation.

Was the five petal Kopper King also in the star formation? You know what to look for now and be sure to keep a photo journal.

The interview with C.S. Kennedy of Dublin Ohio can be found in this magazine if you are lucky to locate a copy. It is available through the inter-library loan program; I was fortunate enough to locate an entire copy of the magazine on eBay.

Perry, Margaret, January 1962.
A coming spectacular: New hardy Hibiscus.
Flower Grower. 49(1): 14, 16, 17. Illus.

The multi-petal formations you are seeing are described in the magazine article. Mr. Kennedy kept “perfecting” Hibiscus and never went commercial. Upon his death all of his work was lost to the hobby or if it still exists, is no longer attributed to him. There is a lesson in this for all of us: unless you are a professional grower, it is better to share discoveries with your fellow hobbyists.

This summer I will be working with Hibiscus Annie J. Hemming (PP835) which survived by the slimmest of margins. This Hibiscus sometimes produces extra petals, numbering between 7 and 9. This Hibiscus is only available here:
http://www.easternshorenurseries.com/Plants.htm
They will ship bare-roots in the early spring.

Another excellent source of information is Dr. Harold Winters’ 1970 paper on Hardy Hibiscus. Most college libraries should be able to obtain a free copy of the paper for you. Request an electronic PDF copy.

Harold F. Winters
Economic Botany
Vol. 24, No. 2 (Apr. - Jun., 1970), pp. 155-164
http://www.jstor.org/pss/4253137

In addition to the hardy blue Hibiscus, referenced previously, another star formation hardy Hibiscus which DG members are discussing can be found here;

Wondering how to cross pollinate hardy hibiscus in Ohio
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1119777/

Mike

Mike thought that you might be interested that my Kopper King is finally blooming again and look!!

Here's another

Crissyr,

Did it return to normal flowing by it self or did you use an insecticide and if so which one? Is the leaf predation shown in the photographs old or new damage?

Mike

I just noticed my mothers (red hardy which I thought was Lord Baltimore, but now think otherwise) doing the same thing with the serious curling of the leaves and buds. I also see the pinwheel blooms on it. The only thing I could think of while looking at them yesterday was that the guy who does all the lawn insect spraying hit it with a chemical that it didnt like. He killed all of her gorgeous red honeysuckle. Im wondering if that is it or if it is another weird mutation. Last year it was perfectly normal. It is just getting to our hardy blooming season right now, so I will snap some photos for you to compare soon.
Kristen :)

Are you sure the lawn guy wasn't spraying a weed killer instead of an insecticide? Overspray from weed killers can definitely cause symptoms like that.

Mike, the leaf damage is old. I mixed up some Malathion and sprayed on it. I want to get the Bayer stuff but I just can't afford it at the moment, maybe by fall I'll be able to treat the ground so next spring I won't have this problem.

Kristen I agree, wondering if he didn't spray a weed killer on a breezy day or something?? My curl was from chemicals from bugs such as sawflies, grasshoppers, leaf hoppers, and a few other miscellaneous caterpillars. That sucks about your lawn guy, he should know better!!

I totally think it is from the lawn guy! My mom is so mad, she has told him over and over to watch out for the honeysuckle, now it is brown and crispy. It has to be the reason.

Yeah, bet it was weed killer. That sucks, honeysuckle smells so good! I bet she is mad, I'd be mad.

Sounds like it's time to find a new lawn guy!

A number of pre-emergence herbicides such as oryzaline and trifluraline are plant mutagens and know for their ability to double chromosomes. For additional information see this post I started:

Chromosome Doubling
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1052606/

This summer I am manufacturing Nicotine Sulfate from Tobacco leaf to see what effect it has on Hibiscus seeds.

Mike