This is not the happiest story, but I'm hoping for a happy ending.
Last summer we purchased eight guinea keets from a backyard breeder. A few weeks later we purchased six orpington chicks--well, not quite chicks, they were a few weeks old. Five blues and a splash--very sweet.
A few weeks later we noticed one of the blue orpingtons had developed a large bump on his leg. Took it to the vet and long story short it was determined the chicken had avian leukosis, which I believe is the same thing as Marek's (is that correct?). Or maybe Marek's is the virus and the leukosis is the end result. I'm not sure.
Anyway...that chicken was put down and we had a necropsy done--the report said the findings were consistent with avian leukosis. After much investigating we have come to believe that the guinea fowl we purchased arrived carrying the virus--the backyard breeder we got them from said she had two cases of it a few years ago but nothing since. I did some further research and apparently guineas can often live a very long time with Marek's and show no signs--chickens however are much quicker to succumb. When I spoke to the man we got the chickens from he said he had never had a case and I tend to believe him--I saw his set up and all of his chickens looked very healthy.
Over the next few months we continued to lose chickens, one by one. We are down to two--our gorgeous splash rooster and blue hen--the guineas all appear fine but as I said I'm convinced they're infected. So we think our only solution is to put the entire flock down.
After that is done we plan on scrubbing and bleaching the coop, digging up as much dirt from the pen as possible and putting new dirt down (we let them free range but there are times when they need to stay in the pen). We'd like to get chicks that are innoculated against Marek's--there seem to be few hatcheries that do this, and the ones that do don't seem to have the blue orpingtons. Can you buy the vaccine and administer it yourself? Does anyone have any experience with this? I'm heartbroken about having to put our flock down (esp. our last two chickens, we're so attached to them, especially the rooster--he's the sweetest rooster ever) but I'd like to get started on a new and hopefully disease-free flock later this spring. Any advice anyone would be willing to share would be appreciated. Thank you so much!
Starting Over
First off.. Welcome to the Poultry forum! I hope we can get your questions answered.
Yes, you can get the vaccine, but if you are hatching at home, it's hard to administer cause you have to buy like 1000 doses, and it doesn't last. http://www.twincitypoultrysupplies.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=574
You need to vaccinate at the time you take them out of the incubator and put them in the brooder.. Mereck's is airborne, and very hard to keep out... (if impossible) of your environment. http://www.apa-abayouthprogramsite.org/Edu_Material/Poultry%20Diseases/What_is_Mereks_Disease.pdf
Some breeds are more prone to Merecks than others. I think Silkies and Cochins are very prone to it. I'm not sure of the others..
Unfortunately, it is very common. Not the strain you have gotten, but it is very common, it's just that a lot of people either don't know what it is, or are in denial. I don't know that destroying your flock and sanitizing is going to insure you don't get it again. Sorry!
Thanks ZZ--I appreciate your response. :) Do you think I can administer the vaccine if I'm getting day-old chicks via mail order? I imagine I would administer it upon receiving them and placing them in the brooder. And thanks so much for the links--they were very helpful. :)
Shucks, I'm so sorry about this experience you've had. I personally would not put down your lovely rooster, and hen. I have seen it before when some are diseased but others fare very well. If anything I think I would isolate your rooster and hen and see how they do. Your idea of sanitizing I personally think is a good move, but not a guarantee. I would seek a hatchery that will vaccinate, or a breeder who will. Doing it yourself unless you have several hundred is just not worth the expense I don't think...Just my opinion. I also think you can help your new babies by using electrolytes with chick starter, and I always us ACV to boost the immune system of the babies...I like what ZZ's said and hope things go well for you in the future...Hay
Hi Niere, Welcome!
Sorry to hear about your chickens and keets, so sad! There are many hatcheries that will vac the chicks for you. They do it as soon as they're hatched. I've had very good luck with Meyers Hatchery, but know there are many others. I think the average cost of a merak's vac is about a $1.00 per chick. Well worth it.
What breed of chicks are you planning to get?
Not to change the subject but Hay made such a good point and I have questions -
Hay you wrote that you give your babies ACV - at what age do you start giving it to them? My layers get Braggs ACV every day, 3 Tablespoons in their 3 gallon waterer. Right now the chicks, at 3 weeks of age, are still getting (brand name: Durvet) vitamins & electrolytes powder mixed in their water. Are they old enough to skip it and get only ACV in their water - and what would the dosage be?
Oh, and Hay made another good point, Niere, disinfecting is a great idea and I would think it would be a Must! I don't know, beside bleach, what could be added to the soil to kill the germs. Google search, maybe? ZZ's listed some great links as well which I've bookmarked too.
The wonderful people on this forum have been such a great help with my chickens, I couldn't have done it without them. I believe ZZ has the world's best tip/recipe for preventing pasty butt in chicks, it works like a charm every single time!
Best of luck to you, Niere. Looking forward to hearing more from you! Oh, and we love pictures!!!
Everything I've read calls Avian Leucosis a virus. In general viruses cannot exist free in the environment so sterilization etc may not be necessary.
I have had a few cases of Mareks in my chickens - always among the Jersey Giants only. It never seemed to spread from bird to bird; it seemed to pop up in isolated cases. Also the jerseys were supposed to have been vaccinated...(?) Is Avian Leukosis actually the same as Mareks? Can you tell me where to find more information about the connection of the two diseases
Annie I put ACV along with electrolytes in the water of day old chicks. I use two tablespoons per gal. Then I watch the chicks. The ACV will not hurt them even if you use a little to much, however if it is two strong they will quit drinking it. I have never seen a chick reject the water at the two tbl sp's per gal. I continue using the ACV until POL. I know others do it differently but I also feed layer feed from one month on. I have many who say it is to high in calcium, however I just have not seen any negatives from using it. I never use oyster shell, but I do feed the eggshells back to the birds. All of my chickens free range enough to get the small gravel for the gizards and I have never had a problem with soft eggshells. I do appreciate what others have to say, but, ultimately I have to go with what has worked for me...Nothing wrong with oyster shell, but I just don't see the reason to spend money on something I don't feel I need. Penned chickens I believe do need oyster shell...Hay P. S. Yes Annie I believe your babies are plenty old enough to skip the electrolytes...
Thanks, Hay. I'll start adding the ACV tomorrow. I just turned out the light in the garage and hopefully they'll go to sleep now instead of playing with their dirt and grass ball. They play chickie foot ball with it LOL
I started growing kefir and all the chicks and chickens love it!!! (it's a probiotic) My dogs love it too, the cats won't touch it, and we make a fruit or veggie smoothie with it every morning. Yummy. We're going to get healthy if it kills us.
Apparently I read too fast. Your flock did not have Mereck's... The second link I posted above does talk about both leukosis & Mereck's, but it is confusing.. cause nothing indicates that Leukosis presents with a tumor on the leg? Mereck's will cause paralysis, but not a big lump. So I'm lost here..
As I understand it, if you buy hatchery birds that are not vaccinated for Mereck's, they have been exposed by the time they get to you. I doubt it is worth all you have to go through to vaccinate them, especially after the trauma of shipping. I wouldn't if it were me.
A hen will survive Mereck's. Even some that had "range paralysis" have survived and thrived. Often times, Mereck's will just up and take a life of a pullet that just starts laying.. (or about that age) Even still, Mereck's doesn't warrant a "all out" sterilization, it just wouldn't help, cause as soon as you bring other chickens in, well, you start all over.
Leukosis, on the other hand, is different, I don't have experience with that and can't tell you much about that. It is hard to diagnose, so that's probably why not much is available.. Not everyone has a necropsy done, so I believe that is why it's not so well known.
What are you getting chickens for? Breeding? Personal use of eggs? That info would help with a decision on just how far you have to go.
What is ACV?
Apple Cider Vinegar. It has been considered as a great immune system builder for years. I have used it for at least the last eight years. There are lots of people who use it on a regular basis...Hay
How are you doing on your coop desision? I know it's a lot to think about...
Niere, I wouldn't kill the chickens you have. I don't think it will prevent anything, and will break your heart. It is entirely possible that your survivors have contracted and weathered whatever it was, and (if it's viral) are likely now immune. I've had one (LF) rooster survive, and one (banty) die. I think it was mereks, but i'm now going to research avian leukosis.
Need to order an Avian Vet book....
Still researching...I have a man who I think can build me one. Going to show him the plans for ZZ's playhouse...
My friend says the crates would take too much work, have to make a door ....anyway, she was against using them.
Thank you everyone for your kind responses. They are appreciated more than you know.
As of yesterday afternoon our flock was gone. It was one of the hardest things we've ever had to do. I'm still a mess over the loss of our rooster. But I think it was the right thing to do. Now was a good time to do it as our girls (6 and 8) are off visiting with their grandparents.
I've been doing some more research, and porkpal is right about avian leukosis not remaining long in the environment without a host. I have read however that Merek's can be windborne and can persist in the environment for a year.
Our reasons for getting chickens (and initially guineas) was for tick control. We'll not be replacing the guineas, but definitely want to get more chickens. I had chickens growing up and wanted to share that with my girls. They've also loved having the chickens. The eggs are just a bonus. We just liked having them for the sake of having them--they were so sweet and just fun and relaxing to watch. There's something very special about pulling into your driveway and seeing your chickens enjoying themselves scratching for bugs and seeds in the yard. :)
I'm not sure exactly what we're going to do. I do know that we will eventually get more chickens--the yard is just too quiet now. Plus, we have too nice of a coop to let it go to waste as a storage shed.
Again--thanks to everyone for your kind words and support--I appreciate it immensely.
By all means get more chickens! None of us would have chickens if Marek's were a serious and persistent threat. There may be no way to completely prevent losses from disease, but chickens are a hardy lot and they will survive inspite of us.
Absolutely get more chickens! The heartache is hard, but the best therapy is a batch of chicks.. :)
Porkpal is 100% right!
We have probably all gone through Mereck's... it's just part of having them..
You are so right about how relaxing it is!! Good luck.
Niere, I like your attitude, having chickens is wonderful therapy, and the eggs are just a plus...Hay
Thanks ZZ and Hay. :)
Yesterday we ordered 25 chicks--a mix of Black Australorps, Buff Orps, White Orps, S.L. Wyandottes and R.I. Reds. 22 pullets and hopfully three cockerals. They're due to arrive the week of July 4th, the same week we're hoping to get our Greater Swiss Mtn. Dog puppy. (They're supposed to be good farm dogs, we did our best to pick a breed that didn't have a terribly strong prey drive.)
I think it's going to be a busy summer. :) Oh, and don't worry, we'll have the puppy and the chicks seperated, with occasional supervised visitation. ;) We're hoping to raise and train the puppy to be protective of the chickens and not hungry for the chickens.
Cool.. That is good to hear.. (from a #1 enabler) I can't wait for you to post pictures!
Hello Everyone,
I joined Dave's Garden last week, and have just now been reading these posts on raising chickens. You folks give lots of good information! I've been backyard gardening for years, but now I want to also raise a few chickens in my backyard. I'm reading books from the library on the subject, trying to learn all I can before I even start. A local Farm & Garden Store sells baby chickens, but so far not the breeds I'd like to have. Since these will be for eggs (I'm sure they'll become pets too!) I'm hoping to get a Buff Orpington, possibly a Rhode Island Red, a Red Star, and/or a Barred Plymouth Rock. From what I've read, each of these kinds is quite hardy and good layers. I'll probably get only a max of 3 or4 for now. (The city allows up to 6.) I've been looking online, and My Pet Chicken.com sells and ships three or more day-old chicks. A person can pay $1.25 extra if they want them vaccinated for Mareks' Disease. However, their shipping cost is nearly $40 for less than 25 chicks! Wow! There's also a wait until a later date, even into June, for some breeds of chicks. Think I'll keep looking locally!
Hay, your idea of feeding ACV in their drinking water sounds like a really good idea! Any other thoughts or ideas you folks can mention will be greatly appreciated!
One thing I'm concerned about, I've read that some chickens live to be 10-15 years old, although of course they don't lay eggs that long. What am I going to do with 3 or 4 pet chickens who have become non-productive?! There's no way I could kill them or eat them, but I eventually wouldn't be able to have more chickens to lay eggs if I already have the city's limit! (Problems, problems!)
I'm still looking at all sorts of ideas in books to build a coop and a run. I'm not at all independently wealthy (!!) so that's still a big decision to make. I want one that's movable so I can move around in the back yard.
Does anyone have any advice on whether to feed the chicks organic feed vs. regular, non-organic? Is the organic more healthy, or give the chicks any extra boost?
Again, if anyone out there has any ideas or suggestions, I'd surely be glad to hear them! Thanks!
Meant to ask: Hay, what is POL? (You said you "gave them ACV until POV"...??)
Also, AnnieBBB, where or how do you get kefir?
Thanks!
POL = point of lay. Welcome Lazarpl! You will love chickendom. If there is a feed store that you deal with regularly, they may order chicks for you, which would eliminate the shipping costs. I have Buff Orpingtons and Barred Rocks and both are calm friendly breeds and lay well, however the Barred Rocks may bully younger hens. I have never had a hen live to older than eight years and they never completely stopped laying. If you acquire your chicks a few at a time so that they are various ages, you should never be without eggs.The best feeding program, in my opinion, is to allow the hens to free range in addition to whatever commercial ration you choose.
Thanks porkpal :). I wrote a lovely long answer yesterday and sent it straight into the ozone. I hate that.
Pretty much what pp said, tho. I've never had a hen live to ten years (but there were adverse circumsatnces, including Hurricanes) but as said, they never quite stopped laying, either.
Lazarpl, how many eggs do you need per week? You might use that as a guide to how many to start with, and as porkpal says, add more as you go along. Personally, I'd build for 10 chickens, just in case . With a Secret Compartmant to hide the "extras" from the Chicken Police....
No, I would NEVER do something like that, myself:)
Hi Lazarpl,
I bought the fefir grains on line from The Kefir Lady, you can google her. Believe her when she says it will eat you out of house and home. I've make enough to share grains with about 19 people now. I had to get rid of some of the grains (fed to chickens) because it was eating a gallon of milk a day! It's a great probiotic and I feed it to the chickens, chicks, dogs, and us every day. Now I'm back to making a managable 3 cups a day.... but it won't take long for it to go crazy again. The Kefir Lady sends an instuction booklet on how to grow it faster, slow it down, and how to make cheese with it. We make fruit and veggie smoothies with it, very yummy and healthy.
Hello again! Thank you so much for your responses! Sorry it's taken me so long to get back on this site to answer you. Actually, I was writing back to Porkpal Sunday night when the news came on about the U.S. getting Bin Laden, and I quit writing. Didn't seem right to be writing about chickens at such a momentous time in our country.
Porkpal, your suggestion to check with a local feed store to perhaps order chicks is a great one! I'll definitely do that.
Porkpal and Catmad, That's a relief to know chickens ordinarily live to be 8 or 10 years and still lay even then! I plan to let them free range as much as possible in my back yard, but will have a smaller pen and a coop of some sort. Am still looking at pre-built coops and also at building schemes. Unfortunately, my son is not into chickens! He's told me he is not interested in building a coop and run for me, so I'll probably have to go pre-fab and get a neighbor to help me put it together.
Catmad, our city laws allow only 6 chickens in a backyard situation. I have a next door neighbor who may turn out to be something of a "Chicken Police," but I hope not! (How would a person manage a "secret compartment" thing to hide chickens??) (Not that I'd ever do such a thing either!)
AnnieBBB, thanks for the info about kefir! I'll be looking it up, but haven't had time yet. I'm definitely into going natural and probiotics and that sort of thing.
Porkpal, out of curiosity, do your Buff Orpingtons get "broody" on you? I've read that they tend to be very broody, and I've wondered if it's usually a problem with them....?
Another question, Porkpal....(I hate showing such ignorance!)....Does "point of lay" mean the time they first begin to lay eggs? I haven't yet seen that expression in one of my books, but there are still lots of books out there I haven't read yet!
Thanks again for your responses, each of you. I really appreciate your ideas!
I have BO`s and am waiting for them to go broody so far nothing.They are a year old last month.
I have eight Buff Orpingtons at the moment and two of them (Nutmeg and Poppy) go broody a couple of times a year. It does not seem to be much of a problem as they usually abandon their attempt after about a week if I make sure they have no eggs to sit on. Point of lay is the age at which you expect them to start laying which varies with breed. If you have grumpy neighbors it might be a consideration that Orpingtons tend to be rather talkative; I find it endearing but...
Thanks, green and Porkpal!
Interesting fact to remember, that Orpingtons tend to be talkative....
When hens go broody, do they continue to lay eggs, or do they stop laying during that time? I'd think their hormones would be affected, which would affect their laying.
P.S. Green, please keep me posted on your Orpingtons and let me know if they do go broody. Thanks.
Porkpal, (or anyone out there), are there any unusual personality characteristics of New Hampshire Reds, Barred Rocks, or Golden Buffs (all hens)? Like being unusually noisy, difficult to deal with, etc.?
When broody, hens do stop laying.
The only other breed you mentioned with which I have experience is the Barred Rock, and they are very friendly with people but can bully younger pullets, especially meek ones like the Buff Orpingtons. My Rocks have never gone broody.
By "bully" them, do you mean just sorta' push them around, or do they peck at them?
Mine pecked them them on the head. One pullet was actually quite bloody. I sprayed her head with Alu-spray and they left her alone; it looked like she was wearing a helmet. The whole episode only lasted a couple of weeks and then there was peace. Since then I have added more Barred Rocks, but since they are younger than the others, they don't try to dominate.
Hmmmm.... Very interesting! Makes me re-think about Barred Rocks! I think they're so pretty, but I don't like the idea of hen-peckers! Poor things. Am I right in thinking that the hen-peckers are hens also? I thought only roosters were hen-peckers...?
I will keep you posted if my BO`S ever go broody.I am waiting patiently because I want to order soome lavender and blue and splash orpintington eggs to put under them so I can have some different colors in the pen.I have one buff rock that is so likes to talk to me when I go out to do choreAnd if someone comes to look at the chickens she never shuts up and gets really anoying because she gets louder and louder as we ignore her and try to carry on a conversation.But I really like her and pick her up and cuddle her,when I get near her she squats its so funny,she always brings a smile to my face.
I think you'll be okay with Barred Rocks as long as you don't get them first, so that they are not the oldest hens.
I agree with porkpal,that should work
Oh green, that sounds so funny! Your Buff Rock wanting to be in on the conversation, and getting louder when she's being ignored! I'm liking Buff Orps more and more the more I hear about them. (Evidently your Buff Rock is a Buff Orp/Barred Rock combination?) Another lady here in Tulsa who raises chickens in her back yard was on a local noon TV show with her Buff Orp. That chicken was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen!! I didn't know chickens were so pretty! It was simply gorgeous!
OK, Porkpal, thanks for the advice. I'll definitely get the chicks at the same time. On May 12th I'm planning a day trip to a garden place in nearby Missouri with a church group. Will be gone most of the day, so I won't get any chicks until after that, for sure. I'm thinking of getting only 3, or 4 at the most, to keep expenses down. (Tulsa limits us to a maximum of 6.) I'm still wavering on the whole idea, though. My son thinks I've gone bonkers! We'll see...