I live in growing zone 9b/10 in deep south Texas. I see alot of plants that goto zone 8a. Is it the heat that limits the growth? I think I've seen high temps at lower zones areas.
Maybe it's just another blond question but I don't think I've been told why.
Thanks
shrinking your growing zone
I really don't know, it could be that some plants can not tolerate sustained high temperatures, but can tolerate them for a shorter period of time.
Are you thinking of any plant in particular, or is it just a general question?
In general. I've seen some plant I wouldn't mind trying that go to zone 8. I'm thinking maybe more afternoon shade and more moisture during the hotter months if it isn't already steamy.
We just got a grape that is suppose to grow here. The only one we've found. I've seen where nurseries have set up arbors here only to see 1 of 6 survive.
Thanks
In many cases it may be that the plant requires a certain amount of 'cold' in order to bloom and/or set fruit. Depending on the plant this may be measured in the minimum # of nights it needs below a certain temp or the minimum temp it needs to reach. This is probably the case with grapes.
There are a number of plants which are not recommended for my Zone. Many of these will survive here but will not bloom or set fruit (at all or reliably). For instance, I can grow Peonies. In fact, I have a number of them, but while they grow and look healthy, they don't bloom (even with the eyes at soil level) because they don't get cold enough here. Most don't even try to set buds. A few of the early varieties will occasionally have a bud or two, but those blast due to our early high summer temps.
Likewise, there are only a few varieties of blueberries that will bear fruit in my zone, again because they require more cold temps in winter which we just don't have. Many roses probably won't do well in your zone not because they can't survive the heat but because it doesn't get cold enough in winter for them to go dormant and get the rest they need in order to bloom properly the following spring.
You can try to push Zone limits a little but generally speaking you're not likely to be very happy with the results when growing plants outside their specified zones. For years I was determined to grow some of my favorites which do not prosper in my zone. After about a decade of baby them and getting lackluster results I finally came to the realization that I will get much better results for my efforts by sticking with plants that are recommended for my zone.
dmtom, I've been looking at grapes myself as I've been adding fruits to my garden. Which variety did you get? I've been considering Orlando Seedless or Roucaneuf but I think I need to know more--a lot more =D. I've been thinking of starting a new thread on the "fruits and nuts" forum for winter when things are not so hectic. They were very helpful and enthusiastic about my fig adventures. For the fruits, you can't really work around the chill factor. The plants will probably grow fine but you might not get the fruits you want all the time. Only when the weather works out right. But still, I think if you have the room and you are fine with an appricot tree that doesn't produce fruit every single year, then I would go for it.
As for trying ornamentals out of your zone, I used to live in Florida and am now in zone 8a after moving from zone 5a in the Chicago area. If the zoning for a plant states zone 7 I'll try it if I really want it as long as it is not too expensive. I try to think of these "extra zone" plants as annuals. They will usually last a few seasons, but the one condition they will not tollerate will eventually crop up and then they will need to be replaced. I have to ask about each plant I am considering and each plant is different. For example, if the "extra zone" plant says "light shade" in the plants' description then I would look for a spot on the east side of the house and make sure it gets dappled sunlight. If it seems to want more sun then I would move it a bit closer to more sun. For me it is kind of an experiment that I have mentally resigned myself to eventual failure. That way if the plant works out for several years I am shocked and delighted! Occasionally they really work out! The one thing I've found you really can't work around is the wrong soil conditions or (here in East Texas) humidity. I would love to try some of those really cool looking evergreens from the Northwest, but after talking to the nice people at Sooner Plant Farms I've resigned myself to selecting similar evergreens that will grow well in this area. Actually I'm not quite so resigned as the folks at Sooner suggested a cedar I might like with similar characteristics as the evergreen I really wanted. The suggested plant is turning out to be very cool and now I want more!
I guess it all boils down to how much of a plant geek are you--or perhaps what type of plant geek are you? Are you a Mr Science Geek where everything is nice and clearcut and will work out well and you know why? Or are you a Beakman's World Geek where things may or may not work out, you would like to know the reason why either way, and you don't mind if a large, overweight, unshaven and tattoo ridden rat (in my case usually my neighbor) shows up to tell you how wrong you were?
I agree with Dream. Many plants go dormant in the winter and they wouldnt be able to do that in your zone. They wouldnt get the chill requirement for flowering either.
DreamOfSpring, Ooops! I was typing while you were posting. You are right, trying to baby a plant that is wayyyyy out of zone is just too time consuming. At least for me. But I don't mind forcing many of my roses into dormancy by pruning at mid-summer as I like to prune and I really like my roses. I do miss peonies, though. But, alas, they are not for my area either! I wonder is tree peonies would work............
I have heard that if you put a gallon of ice once a week on you peonies during the winter they will bloom just fine, that might be helpful for those of you who really want them.
Thanks for all the input every one.
The Little Lady found a seedless concord grape at Gurneys that is suppose to grow here.
My neighbors have roses blooming but they maybe a diffrent varity. I planted 6 this spring and 2 survived. I've noticed several plants that go dormant during the summer, I'll keep that in mind.
We get a freeze every 3 years so that might help but it does limit the tropicals. I like to experiment but don't have alot of time. I rather grow something I can eat.
Thanks a bunch
Dane
Surinam Cherry, Barbados Cherry, Strawberry Guava, Jaboticaba, White Sapote, Cherry of the Rio Grande, Capulin Cherry, tons of Citrus and Tree Fuschia will all do good in your area and are edible. These are all hardy to 23 degrees or less. I bet you could also do a Lychee if you planted close to your house.
Bananas and citrus do well, avacodos are a little risky. I had to cut a Guava tree out because we were sensitive to the smell they give off. Read about Cherry of the Rio Grand last week. Had a can of lychee last month. They were good. I did get a blood orange this year. Will have to see what a Tree Fuschia is.
Thanks for the new fruit to look for.
Dane
I think part of the the deal with those USDA zones is that very little of the US is zone 9 and 10. I think sometimes it may just be lack of data, rather than data definitively showing the plant won't grow.
The other problem is that the USDA zones are about average minimum temperature, which is just one aspect of the plant's environment. Those Sunset climate zones take into account more factors, like how often if gets cold and how long it stays cold and elevation and how close the ocean is. So they may really be more useful.
http://www.sunset.com/garden/climate-zones/sunset-climate-zones-texas-00400000036339/
I am growing Avocado here in 8b so I dont think you should have a problem. Go to RiversEndNusery.com which is down by South Padre and pick up a cold hardy variety. They have Brazos Belle Avocado that are hardy to 14F degrees. The Mexicola is hardy to 19F and there are more coming out next year that are closing in on the lower teens. You should really visit the nursery because they have an orchard with all the plants they sell so you know they will do okay in your area.
Plant species are unique and have different needs so it's really all of the above. For some, too much heat, for others a lack of cold in winter and so on. I try some of my old favorites from zone 5 but they have almost never really been worth the trouble. I am resigned to what tolerates the dryness and intense heat here. By giving up on my old favorites I have found a whole new group of plants to grow. Still, there is nothing like a spring full of peonies, spring wild flowers and tons of tulips.
C
Well, at least you have plenty of Spring wildflowers here.
Thanks for the link realbirdlady it didn't make sense to me having the same zone as the desert. Thats where I came from and there's alot of diffrence.
I do have an avacodo. Found out what it was 4 years ago and had 2 harvest. They had a big freeze here just before we moved here and not many people replanted avacodos. Mine was a survivor and is a Marcus Pumpkin.
I'm having better luck with plants now and with the support I'm getting here I think it's time to go to Rivers End.
Thanks to all
Dane
Up our way we are blessed with a very forgiving climate but I still cannot get Rhubarb to survive log enough to get established ...Apples and peaches do quite well and they are both fruits that require a certain amount of chilling...
I am suprised about rhubarb, it is one tough plant. It is really a weed further north. Josephine, what ephemeral wild flowers grow here? I would plant some if I knew what they were. I grew trilliums, spring beauty, hepatica, shooting stars, dutchmans britches, jack in the pulpit and others. Any of those grow in TX? I need to do some research.
Cheryl
What about the blue flower for which TX is so well known, your state flower I think? The one shown in the banner at top. I think the name is bluebell. And there's also a red one that is similar and sometimes seen growing amidst the bluebells - Indian something. I love those 2. Love the prairie or field of flowers effect done with bluebells and/or with some of the red ones mixed in. You guys are so lucky to have such a lovely wildflower. I've not had any success trying to grow it here. I'm guessing maybe it doesn't like our humidity.
Sunsets map of climate zones cuts off the tip of Texas. Searched and found another copy of the same map and the color code goes across the tip of Texas. I bet the zone changes between McAllen and Rio Grande City.
One of the first things I noticed was bush zucchini growns into a vine. Garlic seems to have a hard time here, but they grow onions commercially. Gave up growing Petunia's, we blamed it on the crop duster but maybe we're wrong.
Later
Dane
Blue Bonnets and I have not tried sowing the seed for those. I think its an annual that reseeds. As for Indian Paint Brush, I think its a parasite? and haven't tried that either. You are right, when therer is enough water in the spring the roadsides are covered with wild flowers. I am still thinking of the small plants that bloom before the trees leaf out up north.
C
dmtom, I would think that you could grow pomegranates and figs with very little effort. Aren't pomegranates almost a weed tree down in your neck of the woods?
I've been looking at a loquat. Can't really find much info on growing in my area, but I'll keep looking! Anyone growing a loquat?
I bought starter plants of Pomegranate and loquat from e-bay. There is a loquat up the street it seems to be a slow grower and they lost their larger one a couple years ago. I tried to start some seeds and once I bought the one, I ID'ed two seedlings of loquat. The fruit comes off around January here. If you like I can get seeds. The figs I've seen here are more of a bush not like the trees I've seen in Az.
Later
Dane
Passion Flowers would do great down there. Purchase some Passiflora Edulis or Granadilla. They flowers are out of this world and the fruit is soooo delicious. It is the main ingredient in Hawaiian Punch. The Granadilla flower is enormous as well as the fruit. Edulis is smaller but tastier.
Loquats grow wild here in San Marcos, TX. If you dont have one in your yard, you will soon. The seedlings pop up every year around this time. Mine has just started to flower so I expect to get fruit early this year. I usually get fruit in March but it looks like January this time. They are hardy less than 10 degrees but the flowers freeze below 24 degrees. As long as you can get fruit to set before the flowers freeze, you might be able to do it in 8A. If you plant one snuggly near the South portion of the house, you will definitely get some. Our main tree is about 12 feet high and 12 feet wide and gives about 70 pounds a year.
Have you tried calling local nurseries as they are pretty common in TX?
This year I found 2 diffrent wild Wooly Passion vines. One I dug up and brought home. I'm watching the other to get seeds. We have tried several nurseries around and they mainly carry plain easy to grow or semi invasive plants. Found a bush Bird of Paradise in a hanging pot and it was sold for $100. If I do well with the free ones I'll see about buying some better ones.
We are going to try to make it to Rivers End this weekend. They are suppose to be THE tropical nursery for the area. Sound like I nees to attend the next central Texas Round-up. We never made it north of San Antonio and I hear Austin is the pretties area of Tx.
We got sent a hydrangia by accident so I guess my first experiment is already on the way.
Later
Dane
Thank you, C,
Thanks for IDing the blue wildflowers for me (and the red ones). I gather you probably mean that the paint brush one is invasive or that it grows like a weed overtaking everything else in its path. To bad as I've seen some very lovely photos of open fields of blue bonnets interspersed with the Indian Painted Brush. The bits of red sprinkled about in the field of blue make for a nice contrast.
Now that you have ID'd them for me, I think I may have planted the wrong thing. I think I planted bluebells repeatedly and they died. So, who knows, maybe bluebonnets will grow here after all. I need to try them. Thanks.
As for growing plants outside their specified zone, for the 1st few years I was just elated to see mine bloom at all. It was only years later that I finally realized I was spending a lot of time and effort pampering them only to get a few sparse blooms when what we all really want is the lush growth and bounty of blooms we see in photos taken under optimum conditions, and that was something I would never get from these plants.
A peony might have 1, maybe 2 blooms one year, and I would take dozens of photos of that one bloom. The bloom itself would be quite lovely, but the overall appearance of the shrub with its single bloom, not so much. I also have an ornamental cherry that doesn't belong here. Like my other 'zone pushers' I was thrilled at 1st to see blooms on it, but now after years of living with it I've come to realize that all I ever get on that tree are sparsely placed blooms, a white dot here and there, not at all the look that caused me to seek a cherry tree in the 1st place.
Contrast these lackluster performers with the ones that 'belong' here, and there's just no contest. Right now I have camellias out back loaded down with buds. They will put on a show all winter long and well into spring covered so densely with blooms that one can barely see the foliage. I don't care so much for the camellias. I'd rather have peonies. I don't even do anything to take care of the camellias, rarely even fertilize them, yet they bloom in spite of me, and that's my point. In my garden I only have so much space. I can choose to pamper plants that aren't happy here and maybe get a few sparse blooms for my effort, or I can have lush growth and tons of blooms effortlessly from plants that are happy here. It took me a while to get it, but it's now a no brainer.
No, indian paintbrush really is parasitic. Or hemi-parisitic, I think, is the official botanical word. Some of their roots go into the roots of the other plants. Not sure what's in it for the rest of the prairie species, but they seem to have all adapted together - it's not like the paintbrush take over somehow.
There's a bluebonnet relative that grows in your area, Lupinus villosus. The color isn't as intense, I think, but it seems like a nice enough little flower...
Blue bells (that is a very broad term) tend to need less heat and I doubt they would like my climate here. I am a strong believer that for every climate there are plants that will thrive, its just a matter of finding out what they are. I am using more and more TX natives and it has been working out very well. I have a great fondness for perennials so I think that is why I haven't planted things like blue bonnets...yet.
C
Here is the explanation about Paintbrush from the Wildflower center.
http://wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=CAIN13
The Little Lady is planning on buying berries next season. The grape may already be pushing it. Any suggestions or experinces?
BTW I got a Nudjeel Date seed started. It's about 3" now.
Dane
There is a tree called Jamaican Cherry. It produces crops twice a day with candy/rum tasting berries. The tree will grow about 10 feet the first year but starts producing around five feet. If you mulch the base heavily when it gets below 27 degrees, the upper portion of the tree will get damage but grow about a foot a week when it gets warm again. I believe that RiversEnd also carries these trees. They are not very dense so they will not shade out an area. Gather the fruit in the morning and and evening from April - December.
There are some very low chill Blueberries like Sharpblue and Gulf Coast that may fruit there but you need acid soil. They only require 100-200 chill hours.
Oops, my bad on that Paint Brush issue. I see that it really is parasitic, so I was wrong. Thanks for all of the info you guys provided on both Bluebells and Paint Brush. I'm definitely going to try that Bluebonnet as I have loved that plant for years now. I think you folks are super lucky to have such a lovely wildflower.
Speaking of being outside ones zone, well, as you can see I'm a smidgen outside of mine here, this being the Texas Forum. Someone mentioned the Sunset zones earlier. I like them much better, but most things are marked via the 'regular' zones. In Sunset zones, my tiny sliver of the Atlantic coast is actually in the same zone with about 1/3 or more of TX, the eastern side up through Houston. Still, I'm pushing my area a bit here. I saw your question/thread in the New Posts Section and just had to add my 2cents worth. I'll probably be leaving [your great state] now, but I want to take a moment to thank all of you for the wonderful hospitality. You made me feel just like part of the gang. Thanks! And good luck to you, dmtom and others, in whatever you decide to plant.
lol Drop by anytime... you're about as close to east Texas as west Texas is...
ROTFLOL, realbirdlady.
Thanks. :-)
Please don't leave us, you don't have to be in the same state to enjoy each others conversation and experiences.
I think you are very nice and you should stick around.
Josephine.
dmtom, you might want to take a look at www.justfruitsandexotics.com. They are in Florida and would be a mail order source but the growing zones would match for your area. They came highly recomended. I'm wondering if I could grow Mayhaws here in zone 8a? There are quite a few items found at that website that I would love to try!
Thanks for the link. Haven't heard of mayhaws. I'll check it out.
My nephew in Pineville La. has a commercial Mayhaw orchard so if that is any help then I am glad ,My reading on the Mayhaw suggest that they only thrive in a narrow band across Louisiana Mississippi and Alabama but pretty sure they would do equally as well in East Texas..
Josephine,
Thank you SO much for that very kind and welcoming post. I did go away for a while, so I just now saw your post. I am very touched by your kind words. If the rest of Texas is as welcoming as you, I think I might move. We pride ourselves on our hospitality here in the South, and Charleston has won the Friendliest City award for years, but I do believe you have us beat by miles. Thank you again. If everyone were so kind it would be a wonderful world indeed!