Some of you know that I love to chase down the sources of horticultural beliefs. If you have ever spent time on any plant forum you know the common advice is to keep your plants root bound, or at least when you repot give the roots only an "extra fingers width" on each side the pot. My question is where does that advice originate? Why do we believe it? Is this really good growing advice or just an old wives tale? Are plants in the rain forest root bound?
I understand that nursery men prefer to start their plants in small pots and allow the roots to fill it before stepping the seedling up to a larger pot. My understanding is they do this in order to encourage a hearty root system first. But it appears some growers may have taken this advice to excess and always keep their plant's root bound. Should we always keep our plants in pots so small their roots are for ever crowded, or give them space to grow?
We always have new growers looking for good growing advice. If you have adopted a small pot policy please tell us why. If you are an experienced grower and prefer a tight pot method I would enjoy knowing the reasoning. Many of you don't know that I have written for years for a variety of magazines and I have another train of thought in this area. I am now working on a new article to explain about plant growth, a plant's need for oxygen around its roots as well as how to keep their root systems healthy. This discussion will help me to formulate my article.
I am here primarily to listen, not to offer my observations. If I find useful quotes I would like to be able to use them in the article. If you are new to growing, please chime in.
I am here primariily to listen.
Thanks!
Steve
www,ExoticRainforest.com
This message was edited Sep 2, 2010 7:57 PM
Root bound. What is your train of thought?
I've thought about that too. Going by the premise that a plants main imperative is to reproduce itself, in a root bound pot, nutrient resources and space are limited. In my experience, many plants, especially ones that reproduce via seeds do not seem to flower as freely when the plant is is not under stress. I have actually avoided repotting plants to larger pots or actually cut roots and repotted in smaller pots along with withholding water to stress them out and have found that some stubborn plants will actually start flowering. I think stressed out plants probably emit something akin to pheromones.
I noticed something interesting many years ago. Over a 3 month period I was starting bunches of seeds all at once using a plastic window box. I used the same soil over and over transplanting seedlings into new pots as true leaves developed and after awhile I noticed that seeds were germinating faster than usual. I wondered if in the act of germination, the chemistry of the soil was being altered by the germinating seeds. For the heck of it I started some morning glory seeds in fresh soil and some in the "communal pot". The ones in the communal pot ALL germinated a day or 2 faster than the ones in new soil. I tried this with other seed familys and for some it seemed to speed them up and others no difference. It seemed that hard coat seeds were the ones that germinated faster.
So it occurs to me that the chemistry of soil around roots probably changes along with the health of the plant and availability of resources. Root bound plants probably producing stress hormones which encourages plants to reproduce itself .. after all, what we as gardeners are looking for primarily in plants are the flowers.
This message was edited Sep 3, 2010 12:16 AM
To get a plant looking it's best, I think that it would do better with optimum growing conditions, rather than a restriction of conditions.
There's a thread about this on the houseplant forum that you may find interesting: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1050729/
I agree for the most part .. but the root bound belief probably started when growers noticed that plants bloomed better in cramped quarters. With tropicals, that multiply predominantly by rhizomes, corms, bulbs etc. they definitely look better and grow faster with lots of root room. On the other hand, my polyanthus will not bloom unless its extremely crowded. Something I noticed when I planted some in the ground. The pot bound ones put out flowers stalks and the ones in the ground still haven't after 2 years.
It's certainly all speculation on my part from personal experience. I have come to the conclusion that every thing is chemistry. When I worked in a genetics lab with tropical fish and aquatic plants, nitrite/nitrate levels were carefully monitored as the chemistry of the water was key to fish and plant growth.
I believe that plants actually change the chemistry of the soil via the roots and I recycle soil from repotted healthy happy plants and use it for seedlings. I've done this for many years and have had very good results.
Good points. However, tightly bound roots are causing the plant to bloom via stress. If a human is constantly stressed in the long run he/she is not likely to be a happy camper. My personal observations in my own "lab" have been persistent stress on a plant eventually causes a decline it its health. Now if a grower is only interested in seeing it bloom, that may be an effective method but I have a much more long term goal in mind for my own plants.
Still, I'm certain your point fits in directly as to why tightly compacted roots are popular with many growers.
My "lab" is below. As you can see, we don't allow anything to become root bound and yet the grow, bloom and prosper as many would in nature. If you look at the plants on the tree log you will see not a one of them is in a pot of any kind and roots often hang down 6 feet or more. Now, this is only my observation and I would not try to bind it on anyone.
Steve
This message was edited Sep 3, 2010 4:31 PM
Just one more angle.
Steve
I've been admiring your lab for awhile in visiting your web site from time to time.
The thing is, in the long run it's not a good idea to stress plants especially if you want to keep them around for a while. My forays into plant torture only occur when stubborn plants will not bloom and GA3 does not work.
I was thinking about your mention of the rain forest. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember from watching all those nature shows (I remember one that was about the natives that would do the slash and burn thing for a year leaving swaths of barren areas) that in a rain forest and jungle, the depth of fertile soil is quite shallow so it stands to reason that roots would have to travel and pretty much stay close to the surface in order for the plants to survive. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why rhizomes, tubers, bulbs etc evolved.
You just touched on a subject that I have been studying for a few weeks now. Before I offer my explanation about rain forest soil I trust everyone knows my "lab" is not something sponsored by an educational organization. I "study" these plants because I love to learn about them and once I have enough from the published scientific info and responses from the true botanical experts I try to put the info into an organized form growers can use.
I began to want to earn a PhD in botany quite a few years ago but since I am already 64 I know the chances of that actually happening are now slim. Still, if you approach a subject with the same fervor you would if you were trying to earn that document to hang on a wall it can drive you to seek even more information. Although I do teach an occasional lab class at our local university as well as give lectures to organized plant groups (Master Gardners etc) I learn because I want to understand why some things work better than others and why many horticultural beliefs are down right false. I try to put that information to work in my "lab" every day.
Straight up, I am not a scientist! I am a serious student of aroid botany but realize if I were to finally get my degree there is not a soul in the world that would hire me! It is just a cherished ambition very much like the one I had when we set out to design our "rain forest".
This is going to be a short "dissertation" and I know some on this forum hate it when I do this. My advice, stop reading right now and find another thread.
Now, about rain forest soil.
Have you ever walked into a beautiful botanical garden and said to yourself you’d love to be able to grow plants this way in your home? I used to spend time in some of the best in the world with the goal of doing the same thing in my back yard on a much smaller scale.
The truth is you can easily do so provided you are willing to learn how these plants grow in nature and follow Mother Nature’s lead. That does not need to be difficult nor expensive. Botanical garden staff members rely on botanists that have observed the same specimens in the wild to tell them what each species needs in order to prosper. I seek their advice all the time!
At the same time, we as growers typically want only one set of very simple rules requiring that we do little other than water our plants once a week, or less. The two photos just below are of our own Exotic Rainforest private garden in Northwest Arkansas. We have a motto which controls the way every plant is grown, "Listen to Mother Nature, her advice is best". Believe me, it works.
Advice given on the internet is often not based in science but in assumption. Although you are often told on internet discussion sites to water sparingly and buy a “rich” soil for your tropical plants the soil in the tropical rain forests are typically very nutrient poor and it rains often. A great deal of litter falls to the ground where it is quickly broken down through natural decomposition via earthworms, insects including termites and fungi. Although we grow our plants in air-conditioned living rooms where there is little humidity, in the forest the heat and humidity encourage the further decomposition of the rain forest leaf litter. The shallow roots of very large trees then rapidly absorb almost all of this organic matter. As a result, most of the nutrients are contained in the trees rather than in the soil.
Most nutrients that manage to be absorbed into the soil are leached out by the frequent rainfall which leaves the soil infertile and acidic. Trees in the rain forest rarely grow deep roots as is common in North America. It is not uncommon for very large trees to fall in a storm but all the seedlings waiting for the patch of light that is left when a giant falls quickly replace them.
The topsoil layers in the rain forest may be only one to two inches (often less than just a few centimeters deep but provides only a limited amount of nutrition to the plants. The plant life is lush since the plants store the nutrients inside their own cells as well as produce them via photosynthesis rather than gathering them from the soil. Were you to step into a living rain forest you will find far more plants dangling from the trees than you will ever find growing in the soil, yet we demand they grow in soil, often excessively rich.
Plants in the forest have adapted to utilize the nutrients from their fallen “brethren” in order to flourish and survive. When plants decay, others rapidly absorb the nutrients left behind from the dead vegetative matter and reuse all of them. At the same time, we tend to “clean up” our plants and just throw the dead leaves in the trash rather than returning them to our compost for our future soil mixtures! The fain forest is naturally poor in soil nutrition which is exactly why farmers that regularly destroy thousands and millions of rain forest acres can only use the rain forest soil for one or two years. Man often does not think things through logically and just reacts to opportunity.
I fear that far too many house plants end up in the trash for the same reasons rain forest farmers continue to destroy the plants in nature. We make too many "assumptions" and do little actual research, we just willingly believe what we are told and if the bad information is challenged some choose only to try to discredit the source rather than consider the science.
The rain forest soil is infertile because it averages eons in development and requires constantly being both replenished while those nutrients are quickly used again. Even in the forest there is not enough vegetative material falling to the ground or trees falling, burning and decomposing to make the soil rich enough to grow a crop!
The constant rain washes minerals out of the soil that flows down the numerous rivers leaving soil both acidic and nutrient poor. When the soil is exposed to the heat and sunlight it is often turned into red clay in which little can grow. Many of the remaining minerals cannot be utilized so they become useless to plants. There are occasional fertile patches of soil in the rain forest, but they are rarely compacted and often scattered throughout the thick vegetation. The hot and humid conditions of the forest cause tropical rain forests to be an ideal environment for bacteria and other microorganisms and since they remain active throughout the year they quickly decompose matter on the forest floor. Yet, despite countless years of developing her plants to live with specific soil, rain and water conditions we want any plant we buy to suddenly ignore their DNA and yield to our demands for simple care by simply buying a “bag of soil” without regard to its contents and dumping it into a pot. These are rain forest plants and they love water! We must learn to adapt our growing style to meet our plant's needs, not ours.
Sorry for the dissertation since I have been told already I "yap" too much. I only hope those that really want to grow plants well will consider just a bit of this.
Steve
This message was edited Sep 3, 2010 11:19 PM
This message was edited Sep 3, 2010 11:25 PM
I agree fully with the statement that stress may not be a good thing!
I found a beautiful Anthurium veitchii with very large leaves in the atrium this week with almost all the leaves gone! That plant had produced two very nice inflorescences in May of this year and I know it was very healthy. When we took it down and examined it I found the soil had virtually all found its way out of the pot and the roots were dry. My fault!
I have so many plants I sometimes miss important observations and the misting head above this plant was totally clogged. My point is the plant was excessively stressed and went into a survival mode trying to preserve all the moisture in the stem.
I am certain it is alive and will regrow the leaves but due to my lack of careful observation. Plants do the same thing in Nature when the dry season is overly persistent but I came very close to loosing a very beautiful and prized plant grown from seed (not tissue culture) that formerly had nearly 5 foot leaves.
Even though stress can cause some plant to bloom it is not always a good thing! Change your soil regularly and keep an eye on everything!
Steve
This message was edited Sep 4, 2010 4:12 AM
Forgive me for being so long winded tonight.
ecrane3, I have read Al's work on this subject several times now and agree with him 110%. I find his posts to be very logical and well thought out. I only wish we could get all members to read and absorb more of this type of information since at least on some forums many reject it without any consideration
Thanks for posting the link again. We need this type of information and discussion on a bunch of subjects!
Steve
I found your dissertation interesting and informative.
I have been accused of being a sloppy/not very serious gardener because I tend to let dead and fallen leaves and spent flowers stay on the ground in my tropical beds of the yard. I don't know why I do, but it instinctively seemed the right thing to do and after reading your mini dissertation I like to think my background in the sciences led me to it. In my small greenhouse however, I am very meticulous about keeping the floor and pots clean.
My educational background and work has always been in the biological sciences up until the late 70's early 80's when computers caught my eye. I always bless myself for getting the computer "virus" so early as it has served me well giving me an intrinsic understanding of computers as they evolved and how they work. My background in science actually helped in teaching me how to think. I have never abandoned my love of science and believe it has enhanced my love of gardening as to thinking about the why's of things and led to a number of serendipitous discoveries, particularly about soil chemistry, plant growth and seed germination.
I love to learn and am constantly learning new things .. I'm in my early 60's and I keep my brain sharp by playing complex games which require problem solving, thinking ahead and precise hand eye coordination. Sad to say, that a few years ago I finally understood the saying, "Youth is wasted on the young".
Anne
I could not agree more Anne. It is important to not allow trash to accumulate in the greenhouse but it is also not wise to just throw it away. Compost it and use it again as a natural form of fertilizer when you repot your plants!
I too caught the computer virus as soon as Radio Shack came out with them. The early ones were basically useless expect to play games but in time the became extremely useful, especially to store information my brain would otherwise soon forget.
I singed up for the internet when it was a fledgling and about all you could do was post on a few boards about a small variety of subjects. Today, I sit in front of it all the time doing research since many very qualified documents about the plants I grow can be found in PDF format and downloaded. I've actually come close to half way to filling a second very large hard drive with nothing more than photos and PDF documents. Information is all then very easy to find what I am seeking with a simple search of the computer. Several of my botanist friends including Pete Boyce from Malaysia often help me find and download documents from the educational sources not available to the public. Sometimes your own library or an educational institution can do the same for anyone.
Glad you found my "dissertation" useful. When I started out to research that I wanted to understand why many growers love off the shelf potting mixes and how they compare to the rain forest. There is no comparison! Off the shelf mixes are not beneficial for tropical plants and often speed their demise. We need a really good (REALLY GOOD) jungle mix.
Steve
This message was edited Sep 4, 2010 2:52 PM
I see a new sideline for you in your future with a redundant title - Exotic Rain Forest Jungle Mix ;-)
My first real computer was an Osborne CP/M OS - I called it my dual disk drive sewing machine. It was so portable that along with an acoustic modem I could drive up to payphones run the computer off the car and dial into Tymnet then on to the Source which ultimately turned into (shudder) Compuserve. I sorely missed some of my old DOS games like Ultima Underworld until I stumbled upon DOS BOX software. Once I found that, I dug out some of my old games, Ultima Underworld, Kyrandia and Monkey Island and have been happily revisiting them. Brings back good chemistry. Funnily enough, online gaming turned me into a first class typist too .. it was type fast n accurate or die.
I remember that well, including two disc drives side by side: one with the computer's operational program and another with the program I needed to run at the time. There were no hard drives at all!
I think in the beginning I saved all my files and documents to a cassette tape!
If I could get someone to make the jungle mix stuff I would be glad to see it on the market. Somehow I don't expect to see it out there anytime soon so I just keep mixing up my own and no two mixes come out the same! I just make them up on the fly. In fact, depending on how the particular plant grows in Nature the mixes are often so different it would take a bunch of "jungle mix" formulas to keep me happy!
I am very pleased though to read some of the posts on this and other forums where people like Josh and Al are promoting the same thing. All plants simply can't prosper in the same type of soil, especially muddy muck!
Steve
Steve, you know I love reading your stories and that they are.....Informative and interesting. You go way beyond what I will ever do, but it's fun to dream.
Now at the beginning, you mentioned about going just one step up at a time for the potted plants. Well, what is your thought about taking a 5" potted plant and putting in the earth? That's a mighty big step! LOL
I also have noted that I have purchased plants in bloom, put them in the ground and then it will take forever and a day for them to re-flower. There is a 2 years old gardenia which I'm going to start beating if it doesn't flower soon.
Don't stop.
Hap
What a wonderful day yesterday.
It was so great meeting you in person at the Aroid convention at Fairchild in Miami. You are even sweeter in person.
Hugs.
Nancy
Nancy, part of the trick is to spread the roots well apart. I don't know if you've tried that but they tend to begin to stretch and run away from the base of the stem faster. I have often taken 5 or 6 inch pots, spread the roots way apart and put them in an 8 inch or larger pot and they grow rapidly. However, there is a trick and that is the must have very loose porous soil. I know the soil in South Florida is porous but you might want to consider helping it out by adding a mixture of a descent potting soil, some fine orchid bark and some peat all mixed with the natural soil before putting the plant in the ground. We lived in Miami for over 20 years and I often did that with great results.
I sure wish we had more time to talk at the show but next year I'll give you my cell phone in advance and we'll find a "corner"!
Steve
That sounds great Steve. Both things.
I will try spreading the roots out further. I do use peat now with some perlite.
Take care,
Nancy
I agree with your dissertation as well.
Spending time in Nimba Mountains in Liberia W. Africa, and excursions to Costa Rica, both places volcanic, poor shallow soil. It is the constant mulching of the forest combined with it's ability to absorb rainy season with good drainage in the hill jungles. I practice the same approach in my own garden and only pick up debris (leaves, mulch) in early spring to reduce detrimental fungus and disease, the rest of the year it provides that vital exchange of good fungus, bacterias etc.
The problem is how do I get that effect on the smaller surface areas of the root bound pots?...I do place surface/leaf mulch from the garden, because bark mulch in my opinion is too dense for the tropical plants which seem to prefer the better drainage as opposed to trapped moisture bark mulch provides. I use leaf mold from the nursery which is also good, but must be applied sparingly.
After 10 years of gardening, I still mess up the re-potting formula (too much soil, too big pots) so have turned to very conservative repotting methods and my constant gardening motto, " A little, is a lot!". As you say, drainage is paramount.
I've also found a critical difference in non tropical or subtropical watering by the gardener. Even in the green house, I nearly cease watering in the garden from October to March if the outside temp is 80F or less. In the green house, when temps outside fall below 70F I cease watering in the green house, with the exception of a segregated shelf/area of plants that require more water. This has proved to be very sucessful, even with the root bound guys.
Scientific or not, it is certainly an excellent learning experience that is continuous!
All of this really does require knowledge about the tropical plants one is growing, as some tropical are swamp, lagoon, rainy season water standing tolerant where as the jungle hill plants require shallow, well mulched, well drained conditions.
I'm still getting the tropiclal seedling part of it down, never seem to get that one right, although nature teaches me by my own gardens ability to reproduce itself by dropping seeds on top of the soil, pebbles and rocks growing quite successfuly.
Rj
i just love all the thoughts here! back in college i got bit by the orchid bug.. ended up with over 100 orchids and staghorn ferns..
my roomies thought i was nuts.. thank god the electric bill was included in the rent.. LOL
this yr ive started growing bananas and alot of elephant ears...
i bought a ton of coco coir.. mixed it into my utah soil.. and ive composted for yrs now..
i too believe that we waste way to much in our gardening practices..
every fall i drive around and pick up as many bags as i can... curb side.. of leaves..
i mow them down.. and use in flower and vegy garden..
i am so grateful to u all on your much experience in growing tropicals..
next yr im already thinkin up ideas of making the backyard into mostly tropicals..
guess a greenhouse(for winter storage) is a must pretty soon...:)
thanks to all...
Thanks to all of you for your feedback.
Steve
Steve,
Thanks for the dissertation. I really did enjoy it and it makes a lot of sense that we should not expect plants to ignore their DNA and thrive in any "bag of soil". So, to get started, how does one find out if a specific tropical plant grows in a swamp or jungle hill? Could you recommend a website that might have that information? If you have time, it could really help if you could give an example of one of your plants, how it grows in nature and then the "jungle mix" formula you use. Steve, I met you about 4 decades ago when you were playing banjo with the Newfolk Trio. My brother, Phil, was in your group. A few years ago he said he visited "your lab" and said it was really outstanding. I adore your website. Thanks.
Donna
What a surprise Donna! As long as I have known Phil I really enjoyed reading your response. I see Phil and Judy at least once a year and I think Judy likes the "lab" more than Phil! She is often in there when the come looking for the tree frogs!
Here is where you can find the answers in most cases:
http://www.cate-araceae.org/index.do;jsessionid=96982249A0181F1EB1E74E6CEB9841D4
You will need to know the species name as it is listed scientifically but if you go to CATE you can find all sorts of info on where the plant grows in nature, if it grows in a wet forest, or in most cases the typical terrain. You just type in the genus and a complete list of the accepted species will pop up. Find the one you want and click on it. You will find a description and often notes about the plant and how it survives in nature. It takes a bit of research to learn the terms that are being used but most can be found on the internet and I am adding a list of scientific aroid terms with as simple definitions as possible to my site.
If the plant lives in a typical rain forest it must have fast draining soil with few exceptions. There are a few Philodendron species such as Philodendron paludicola or Philodendron goeldii that enjoy having wet roots but most want the water to come and drain away quickly. Still, remember that much of the Amazon basin goes completely under water for months during the rainy season so the plants re forced in many cases to grow completely underwater for months at a time.
I also use the Missouri Botanical Garden site TROPICOS to find the same info. If you look up the species and click on "specimens" you will find a list of plants observed in the wild. If you go to the left of the page and click on the "collection number" you will often find a brief description of the plant and the terrain. That is especially true if Dr. Tom Croat wrote the description. Tom is very meticulous about taking good notes.
I also try to list them on my own web pages so you just may find the answer there. Either way, I'm always glad to help anyone out since I often learn something new. Just send me a note!
Regarding the banjo, can't play it anymore due to so many operations on the tendons of my fingers. The original one is stored at the home of one of my daughters but I have a gold plated one sitting right by my desk! I always wanted one and found one 5 years ago for sale in a small music store in Oklahoma at a fraction of the value! I look at it all the time but only pick it up when no one can hear me screwing up!
Come see the Exotic Rainforest for yourself. We welcome people all the time. And if you get a chance, come to our Fort Worth meeting on October 30th. You can find info about the meeting on both this forum and the aroid forum!
That reminds me! I need to call Phil and tell him I'll be in Fort Worth for the day!
Thanks for the response!
One note about CATE! The site is perfectly safe since it owned and operated by the Royal Botanic Garden Kew in London. You may on some search engines be hit with a warning the site is "dangerous" due to a lack of the proper certificate. I've exchanged notes with the computer gurus at Kew and this is nothing more than an attempt to extract money to pay for a "certificate" they don't need by a company that issues "certificates". Ignore the warning!
Steve
Steve,
Thanks for the response. I am certainly a novice but I have recently been in the process of trying to determine the scientific names of the plants that I have. Thanks for the website info.
I'm sure Phil and Judy will be delighted to know you will be in Ft. Worth for the Aroid meeting. It's an 8 hour drive from here so I probably won't make it. I know you will enjoy it. Thanks again.
Donna
I sent Phil and email yesterday. If you talk to him let him know I'll be there in just a few weeks!
Thanks again!
Steve