Here's a strange one. I'm very attracted to aroids but identifying them prior to their flowering and without previous i.d. I'm rather bewildered even as to the genus.
Thank you for the assistance!
A closeup follows this photo.
Ukn Aroid i.d;
closeup of the same
Definitely a Philodendron but offhand I can't give the species.
LariAnn
Can you answer one question and post a few more photos?
Do you see a colored ring (an annulus) at the top of the petioles. The ring will be at the point where the petiole and blade join. If so, what color?
Can you post photos of the full upper surface of a leaf blade and show as much detail as possible of the major and minor veins. Please do the same for the lower blade surface. Close up photos of the veins can be very useful.
Please photograph and describe the shape of the petiole. Do you see a groove, lines, multiple grooves, flat surfaces? Please describe as much as possible.
Can you take a good photo of the stem of the plant (central axis) with some measurements of the length of the internodes between the nodes. The color of the roots that extend from any nodes will also be useful.
Can you photograph a cataphyll (the sheath-like covering of a new leaf? If you see ribs on the cataphyll please let us know if it one or two.
If you have ever seen the inflorescence, that info can be very important as will a photo.
We have some folks on here that are familiar with keying out species and more will be given a brief course at this year's International Aroid Society Show in Miami, Sept 18 and 19. This course is free and will be taught by Dr. Tom Croat. You should bring a laptop and be prepared to spend about 30 minutes learning some fairly easy tips to using the Royal Botanic Garden Kew LUCID key system for Anthurium and Philodendron
Thanks!
Steve
This message was edited Aug 3, 2010 4:53 PM
This message was edited Aug 3, 2010 4:55 PM
This plant could be a part of the Philodendron crassinervium complex. There are several related species (now synonyms) and some are now under consideration to be unsunk from synonymy.
Compare the details of your plant to the photos on this page and check for the details including purplish splotches on the petioles. "Crassinervium" means very thick midvein and that characteristic is obvious in your photos.
I blew up one of your photos to try to examine the venation (vein structure) and it is very fine, also a characteristic of Philodendron crassinervium.
This link contains a great deal of discussion from aroid experts and botanists from around the world but is intentionally written to be easily understood.
http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Philodendron%20crassinervium%20Philodendron%20lanceolatum.pc.html
Steve
This message was edited Aug 3, 2010 6:37 PM
I'm out of town now but plan to do more photos tomorrow. That one particular plant has never flowered that I've seen in 5+ years. There are some similar appearing plants there that have rapidly climbed one of the trellis posts I have flowers at home but they are not as dark green or look so polished.
The roots on the post belong to that plant.
I'd love to be able to attend that IAS show but time, $ and distance are problems. It'd be nice if they recorded it or portions.
More photos will help.
When trying to work out the species name be careful about using shape and some other less critical characteristics for the final decision. Aroids are highly variable and don't always present the same "faces". We tried to be careful about listing viable characteristics in the discussion so check those first.
This may help:
http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Natural%20variation%20within%20aroid%20and%20%20plant%20species.html
Highly trained botanists can sometimes be fooled which is in part why some (at least one) of the current synonyms may in fact once again be declared a unique species. As you will see discussed in the article even the inflorescence can sometimes be a cause for confusion.
Steve
The only collar I can see is the brown ones along the stem. Guess I need to check any sticky for pieces and parts i.d. on this board; I've seen it somewhere.
Here's one of a few photos.
The lower part of the leaf.
Magnified section of top of leaf w/ruler.
Growing tip.
A different view from the side, looking up.
There are portions of your photos that don't align well with Philodendron crassinervium. The tight shot does not appear to match P. crassinervium but other things would need to be eliminated to be certain.
I am really curious now about the petioles which are a part of and support the leaves, can you give us some good detail photos of those? Tell us the shape since they appear from some photos to have a canal (being canaliculate). Are all the petioles this way or only some?
The small upper lobes of the leaves can also be important since they are auriculate. The term auriculate indicates the plant has small ear-like or earlobe-shaped extensions at the base which is the top of the blade.
I have attached a photo of an annulus. One of your photo appears to show one but only faintly. The annulus can be found exactly at the point where the petiole and leaf blade join. If one is present (may take a good magnifying glass) the color is important.
Steve
Please look closely at the petioles for any lines (striations), tiny grooves that run parallel (sulcate) a larger groove that runs inside the canal, splotches or discoloration. All of this can be useful when trying to key out a species.
Alistair, Dave, Scott, Brian and LariAnn, if you are watching this thread your comments would be very useful.
Steve
Each leaf petiole (or what I know as a leaf petiole-there is a canal that runs maybe 1" from out away from where it joins the stem. The flap on top gives it the appearance of there being no canal.
I pulled an older cut petiole free from the stem; it definately shows the short canal. The back of that stem (more out towards the leaf but still only 1"-2" away from the stem) does not show a canal or tube; it looks fibrous. (will try to attach new photos while here).
The rest of the what I know as the leaf petiole has a slight groove or indentation out towards the leaf.
The base of the leaf shows some ear-type attachment-will try to show that photo also.
I pulled the dried brown 'annulus' from the stem and it has a cream color.
Thank you for your patience with me.
I'll follow with photos inserted at home; it's not working here.
old cut leaf petiole, snapped. The canal is short, but tubular; the tops make it appear totally closed.
looking at the canal from the stem-attached end. What looks like a green scar on the top are flaps, one on top of each other.
An indentation or groove along the leaf petiole.
I pulled off one of the collars; where the light didn't shine was flesh or beige colored. The sun was very bright and so the color didn't show well in this photo. Where the sun hit it was deep green.
Base of the leaf lobes
Thanks! All of this helps to work it through a key. I'll see what I can learn and will show your photos to a few real experts. If is possible to try once again with a live leaf to get a photo of the annulus to verify the color that would go a long way since the color can easily eliminate other possible species. If a photo is difficult then examination with a good magnifying glass will be helpful
I blew up one of your photos and was all but sure I could see a vague annulus but the color isn't obvious.
Measure two of the most mature leaves and give the measurements please. That is very helpful:
1) Length and width of the blade. Is it glossy, matte or have any other noticeable texture? The info for both sides of the blade can be significant.
2) Length of the longest petioles.
3) I think you were describing a cataphyll earlier (fibrous). That would be the sheath-like covering that temporarily surrounds a new leaf. Even the color the fibers dry (if they are there) is important. A good description or photo of how it dries would be useful. Also, look at a living cataphyll and see if you can see any "ribs". If so, how many?
4) Please measure the distance between the nodes on the stem. Just so I don't loose you, the nodes are the rim-like portions that form the sections in the stem and from where new roots and leaves emerge.
Anything else you can obviously see that can be measured is useful. The description of a species is built on these types of measurements and observations so the goal is to eliminate some features which including all the important ones.
Steve
This message was edited Aug 7, 2010 7:39 PM
Hopefully,I've narrowed down the choices. Can you confirm this info I will do my best to keep it understandable. I think you may be growing Philodendron glaziovii but good photos are difficult to find of the correct plant. Some of the photos on the net are bogus.
Could that tan annulus have actually been purple? Did I read correctly you tried to remove it? You need to look at a good petiole with a good glass to check the color.
The plant appears to be an epiphytic vine that grows on another plant (tree). Is that correct?
de;ending on the size of your plant, are the internodes around 2 cm to 6 cm in diameter, green or brown in color and semiglossy? Do they average about 6 cm long?
Are the cataphylls pale green in color with no ribs on them? Do they eventually completely fall from the plant?
The petioles appear to be subterete (less than round) and either weakly flattened on the upper surface or sunken? Do they also have any purple tinges and spotting? Do they feel spongy?
Are the leaf blades thick to the feel (leathery) Are they glossy or semi-glossy on the upper surface but matte on the underside?
I can’t see any major veins in the leaves other than the mid rib. Look closely and confirm this please.
This is the best drawing I can find for you to compare. This is from Curtis’s Botanical Magazine and is now quite old but is a good representation. I have the species I think it may be but mine is still too juvenile to compare well to your blades but the petioles and venation appear correct.
Too bad you haven't seen an inflorscence since it is distinct and beautiful
Steve
Do the younger petioles, stems, petiolar sheaths and leaves look anything like these two photos?
Steve
Or these?
Photos of the last 2 plants do not resemble them. There's no groove in the leaf petiole that's visible.
I will admit to being partially colored blind; I can see colors just not well in dim light. I see no purple coloration anywhere.
Yes, it appears to be an epiphytic vine; that's a 4" x 4" cedar pole it's growing up.
internodes are 1" to 1.5"; nodes green; oldest nodes where no leaves are brown to gray in color.
On the cataphyll, there are no fan-folded ribs or outward extending lines one could feel with the fingernail. It doesn't quite appear totally rounded tho....
I'll have to watch the plant for the next week or so to say what the cataphyll is doing. While there's nothing long and dried what is dried is loose and removeable. To me it's similar to a bamboos's sheath; removable when dried....
Petioles are not rounded but are flattened on the upper surface. They might be slightly sunken but there's nothing to grab on to on the sides like the channel on your last 2 photos.
I see no purple.....they are hard; not spongy.
Leaf blade thick and feel leathery. Glossy on the upper surface and matte below. Something I noticed down below. Through a magnifying glass there are whitish rounded 'cells' all over as if they might be clear wax. There are elongated squiggle patterns where these cells are missing that go a ways and then stop. It's the appearance in the mg x glass of tiny bugs crawling up a fogged mirror. This may not be a distinguishing characteristic; I don't know.
I see no other major veins although there are grooved patterns or laminated patterns just like a feather has on the leaf blade. They angle out & away from the stem. You have to look closely at this.
From your website it's similar to Philodendron callosum. I did a google image
search of "Philodendron glaziovii " and the leaves very much resemble those here:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://palmaris.org/imagejpg/photos/philodendrum_glaziovii1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://palmaris.org/html/philodendrum.htm&usg=__wZOmQGg0BPTV_ugKoxSfypSVUKI=&h=285&w=634&sz=87&hl=en&start=27&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=-_b6VkEnjSbMoM:&tbnh=62&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPhilodendron%2Bglaziovii%26start%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4ADBF_enUS297US298%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1
Yuk, what a mess. but it was from http://palmaris.org. The leaves there show that same groove/laminating all the way up the leaf.
I'll send you a dmail for some other details.
Thanks for all the info. At least we are eliminating some of the possiblities.
I am trying to assemble the best list of possiblities and then consult with Dr. Croat for his recommendations. Hopefully we can figure it out.
Steve
As per your personal note, this does indeed resemble Philodendron callosum. There are several variations and I only grow a couple of them, none of which are mature. Since your plant appears to be mature that is a good choice to research.
I just checked my files and I don't have the scientific description but I will try to see if I can locate one.
Steve
Updated info-I was given the i.d. on this as Philodendron callosum from a reliable source. Thank you to everyone & especially to Steve.