My aunt gave me a clump or two of hibiscus from her garden a few years ago - well maybe more like 15 or 20?? I love them and they have crossed and multiplied over time. I remember being just a bit disappointed the first year because I just had white but eventually I had pink and white, some with eyes, some not. Now I'm seeming to get blooms that look like some of the fancier hibiscus. I discovered a fancy one across the street and am thinking that is probably where the pollen came from. Last night I saw another neighbor has a big red hibiscus and it got me to wondering if I could try some cross pollinating by hand. Would I take the polleny center from one bloom and somehow get it on the center (I'm forgetting the proper terms)? In my pondering on this, I'm wondering if rose of sharon cross pollinates with hibiscus. Here is a pic of the newer type blooms...
Wondering how to cross pollinate hardy hibiscus in Ohio
OOOOhhhh, I wonder if the pink ones would come true from seed? If they would I would sure love to beg some seed from you! They are gorgeous! I've never seen color like that in a distinct and separate 5 petal format similar to Star of Texas....only white or red
Kljflower
The picture you provided looks exactly like Hibiscus grandiflorus in form and color. There is only one “small” problem; Hibiscus grandiflorus should not be able to exist in Zone 5b. I am growing Hibiscus grandiflorus from seed this year in Zone 6b (Nutley, NJ) and the plants will not survive the winter unless I move them inside after they have gone into winter dominancy.
In your photograph the leaves appear to be large and fuzzy. Do the upper surface of the leaves have a soft velvet texture? To put it indelicately, do they feel like Charmin Toilet Paper? I don’t know how accurate the following quote from Plant Delights is but there may be some truth in it.
Plant Delights Nursery, Hibiscus grandiflorus (Velvet Mallow)
http://www.plantdelights.com/Catalog/Current/Detail/hibiscus_grandiflorus_01120.html
“Who needs toilet paper by the outhouse, when you've got a couple of velvet mallows?”
This is not a very accurate image search but the first 20 or so pictures are mostly of Hibiscus grandiflorus:
http://www.google.com/images?q=%27hibiscus%20grandiflorus%27
In his 1970 paper “Our hardy Hibiscus species as ornamentals” Dr. Harold F. Winters documents several lost Hibiscus cultivates in Ohio. One major Ohio breeder was a C. S. Kennedy in Dublin, Ohio about 69 miles west of your location. I was talking to Dr. Winters last week and he believes Mr. Kennedy died in the mid 1970’s and much of his work was lost to gardening. There was also a Joseph F. Martin in Painesville, Ohio who produced Martin's Giant Hybrids which were offered for sale in 1960 but were lost.
In addition to looking exactly like Hibiscus grandiflorus, you Hibiscus also resembles Hibiscus 'Moy Grande' a modern hybrid of Hibiscus grandiflorus x moscheutos which reports to be the largest Hibiscus flower in existence. This is why I am interested in a possible connection to Martin's Giant Hybrids.
• First of all: don’t do any hybridizing with your hibiscus until we know more about them as they maybe absolutely unique.
• Can you document each of the color forms of the flowers, with one close-up picture of each flower?
• Somehow you need to get a specimen to a qualified botanist who can make an identification.
• Is there an Ohio agriculture extension office near you?
I would be very interested in root divisions from you plants but before you start giving out specimens, you need to do more research and consider the possibility of filing for a plant patent if these Hibiscus have not been previously described. If she is still alive, can your aunt or another family member provide more background on the Hibiscus?
Mike
This message was edited Aug 2, 2010 9:11 AM
I would love to provide more pictures and will do so soon - had a very unexpected family crisis come up. Yes, my aunt is still living so I will quiz her more about where it came from. She knows so much about flowers - can spout off the botanical names like they were words that are used in everyday language. I need to do some followup on this and will report back. Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to me. I will hold off on "playing" hybridizer - funny, last night as I was taking our dog for a walk to clear my head, we passed that neighbor's big red hibiscus and there was a drooping flower that still had pollen dust on it - but with all that's been going on, I decided I better give up on that until next year. The flowers are starting to fade, so I want to be sure to put a tag on some of these to try to save some seeds. I did not know you could make root divisions - really like the idea of that. Also I will seek out some of the other ideas posted. I'm at work now so must get back at it - here is another pic of the hibiscus
Went out and felt the leaves last night - yes, they do feel velvety. I also noticed like three different leaf shapes. I am going to make a collage with all the blooms in one photo and one with the different shaped leaves. Also, I'm fascinated with the seed formation - how that little nubbin develops into seed pod. Never really paid attention before. My aunt is in Columbus & her daughter is in Dublin so I know where that is - can't wait to be in touch with her today or tomorrow. Any idea of how I would find a botanist? There surely must be a county extension office around here. More later - here is another pic of one of the deeper pink ...
Your local OSU Extension Office is 10 miles north of your location in Troy, OH. Tell them you have cold hardy Hibiscus grandiflorus which is previously unreported in Ohio. Be sure to tell them about your Aunt’s collection and the length of time your family has had the Hibiscus. Also inquire if the University has a hardy Hibiscus collection.
Miami County Ohio, Extension Office
http://miami.osu.edu/
201 W Main St, Troy, Ohio 45373-3263
Phone: (937) 440-3945
FAX: (937) 440-3551
This is where the Hibiscus grandiflorus should grow according to the USDA.
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=HIGR4
Attached is a picture of a Hibiscus grandiflorus seedling, in my garden, which stands 4 foot tall and has not yet bloomed. Note the shape and texture of the leaves. If I don’t bring this Hibiscus inside this fall, it will die.
The pink flower in your last picture looks more like Hibiscus moscheutos than Hibiscus grandiflorus. This is most likely a volunteer hybrid. Are the leaves any different?
When you post pictures be sure to include the diameter of the flowers.
Are all the Hibiscus grandiflorus in your Aunt’s garden white?
Mike
Thanks so much for the info - time is of the essence; sure wish I had started on this sooner, the blooms are almost done :( What a fascinating project. I plan to call my aunt today. The leaves on your Hibiscus grandiflora do look very familiar. Thanks again for taking the time to advise and help me!
*****
I just spoke with my aunt about the origin of her hibiscus. She got clumps from a relative/close friend on a farm in southern Ohio (she doesn't remember exactly where) - a long time ago. She was so impressed with her big pink ones and that is what she had as well as the white - much like I described (pink and white, with and without "eyes"). My aunt has been in her Columbus, Ohio home for 40 years.
She mentioned that this year, she had a white one that had one bloom as large as a dinner plate - the rest of the blooms were large but not huge.
This message was edited Aug 5, 2010 12:39 PM
Wonder if this will work - this is a link to a group of my hibiscus blooms on Facebook (until I get a collage made to post)
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2057280&id=1154953045&l=c54bdf5803
I wonder if Auntie's hibiscus are kin to these Great Rose Mallow
Hibiscus grandiflorus? The leaves are almost identical....
http://www.grandiflora.pro/products/product-detail?category=Flowering+Herbaceous+Plants&sort_by=common_name&name=hibiscus&zone_8a=Y&page=1&product=382#results
Auntie's Ohio Hibiscus grandiflorus can survive to Zone 5b which is two full Zones better that then the one referenced in the above link. With the possible exception of the pink flowered Hibiscus shown above, Auntie’s Hibiscus looks exactly like Hibiscus grandiflorus. Even my Hibiscus 'Moy Grande' which has a large H. grandiflorus heritage and a high level of cold tolerance, doesn’t have true H. grandiflorus leaves.
Auntie's Ohio Hibiscus should not exist! Where did Aunti's Hibiscus come from?
Mike
Katharine,
The Facebook Hibiscus photo collection is outstanding. Any change of taking photographs of your Aunt’s Hibiscus collection also?
Mike
Just wanted to check back in - I was not able to get over to my Aunt's in time to get photos of hers - just now thought that maybe she took some pics - she used to take lots of pics but it is getting so hard for her to get around now. Thankfully, she has a man who is learning to take care of her garden so she can still enjoy her flowers. Will have to check with her as far as pics. Also did not get to talk to any experts yet - too much family stuff going on. I'm going to try to collect seeds - didn't think I needed to be in a rush, but some of the pods have opened up so wide and the wind is taking the seeds. Since they are done blooming, do you think I should still try to find an expert around here or wait until next year? I'm so hooked on this now - I saw a different red hibiscus at our little town's farmer's market that had the lacy leaves but decided not to move anything else into the mix yet.
Oh I must be sure to mention - while I have definitely not tried to use the leaves for toilet paper as that one article mentioned, I used that idea the other day when I was out in the yard and got my hands dirty without thinking about it (I'm sure no other gardener fanatics like me EVER do that.... like constantly!) and I thought about grabbing one of the lower leaves of the hibiscus and it was quite handy for that! Some of the leaves were bigger than my hand!
This is a rough collage I threw together...
Nice :)
Katharine.
Your Hibiscus are spectacular. You can harvest seeds as soon as the seed pod turns brown and starts to crack open. Just cut off and then split open the pod, allowing the seeds fall into a paper envelope where the seeds can dry. Never store Hibiscus seeds in sealed container. Many of us are using the Deno Method to force germinate Hibiscus seeds; in less than one week you have instant Hibiscus seedlings. Let me know if you are interested in the Deno Method, there are several good links on DG.
I would very much like to obtain a root division from your all-white Hibiscus grandiflorus. If that is not convenient at this time, would it be possible to obtain seeds from one or more of your all white Hibiscus grandiflorus? I currently have rooted cuttings of several hardy Hibiscus cultivars and seeds from the same Hibiscus. If you are not interested in a trade I can send you a stamped-self-addressed-envelope to ship the seeds in, if you DM me your contact information.
I just spent a week in the Cape May, New Jersey bogs (everyone else was on the beach) looking for the Hibiscus moscheutos Cape May White without success. I am extremely interested in all-white Hibiscus and Blue River II is one of the white Hibiscus I am propagating from cuttings and seeds.
Let me know if you are interested.
Mike
Michael,
I used Blue River II for breeding when it was first introduced. Crossed with larger, red eyed white moscheutos it produced pale eyed hybrids....see attached photo of my hybrid #26. They are a very attractive color, but not as large as I like. This plant would probably produce some pure whites if selfed.
I am looking for plants of the Morrison Mammoth hibiscus.
William
William,
I could only find one seller for the Morrison Mammoth Hibiscus which is this website: http://www.thegardenshopinc.com/ which lists flats with 72 plants each.
Here is the current product catalog:
http://www.thegardenshopinc.com/2010-2011_PRICE_SHEET.pdf, Scroll to Page 3
MORRISON HYBRIDS
HIBISCUS, RUBY JEWEL (36"TALL)
HIBISCUS, SPARKLE PINK JEWEL (36" TALL)
HIBISCUS, ANGEL EYES JEWEL (36"TALL)
HIBISCUS, WHITE BUDDIE JEWEL (36" TALL)
HIBISCUS, MIGHTY BIG PINK (54"TALL) (PP9555)
HIBISCUS, MIGHTY BIG RED (54"TALL)
HIBISCUS, MIGHTY BIG WHITE (54"TALL)
HIBISCUS, ROYAL RED DUCHESS (30" TALL)
The Hibiscus Capital of the World
http://my.pclink.com/~harley/hibiscus.htm
http://my.pclink.com/~harley/hibfaq.htm
Perhaps we should call The Garden Shop to see if they sell Morrison Hibiscus in quantities smaller than flats with 72 plants or could recommend someone who does. I might be interested in a sampler collection of the Morrison Mammoth Hibiscus.
Attached is a picture of 6 month old seedling of a hybrid between Lord Baltimore (pollen parent) and Blue River II (pod parent). The foliage resembles Lord Baltimore and while the plant is less three feet tall there is quite a bit of branching. The foliage in the background is that of another unrelated Hibiscus. The flowers are consistently over 8 inches in diameter and are pollen and pod fertile. What is interesting is that the red-eye is faded and resembles the red-eye in your photograph. This strongly suggests co-dominance and would make it easier to identify Hibiscus with the potential to produce pure-white or pure-pink offspring with no red-eye.
I am finding Lord Baltimore to be a very good pollen parent and I am working on the pod sterility problem.
Mike
Katharine,
In spite of my best efforts to freeze my Hibiscus seedlings this past spring, by putting them out too early, one Hibiscus grandiflorus beat the odds and finally bloomed this morning as show in the attached photograph. The flower was immediately self pollinated, to ensure that I would get some seeds, and then cross pollinated with two Hibiscus coccineus (Texas Red Star) flowers which also bloomed this morning. Plant Delights is selling this hybrid as Hibiscus 'Red Flyer' but it is not clear which Hibiscus is the pod or pollen parent:
http://www.plantdelights.com/Catalog/Plants/Hibiscus-Red-Flyer.html
I may do a two-way cross on this one.
The color and conformation of the flower in the attached photograph is typical for wild Hibiscus grandiflorus and resembles the shape of your original white flowers but there is still something different about the shape your Hibiscus. White Hibiscus grandiflorus have been reported but I have not been able to find any photographs. Someone did some serious work with your Hibiscus. I just wish I know who it was.
Once I obtain some seeds and get a few clones started from the side branches, I will have to decide if I am going the take this Hibiscus in for the winter or take a change on it outside.
My Hibiscus coccineus survived outdoors last winter in Zone 6b, under less than ideal conditions, and I just may take a change with Hibiscus grandiflorus if I have backup. Plant Delights is reporting that Hibiscus grandiflorus will survive to Zone 6.
Mike
Hi Sorry I haven't been on here - my husband and I have been ill and he is still sick. It's been terribly dry around here and I am so frustrated that I have not done a better job on identifying which plants had which flower - was going to try to match up my photos with the plants. Now that they are starting to dry up, I can more easily see the plants themselves so I can make a better drawing/chart. I haven't given up on collecting seeds but I'm thinking it may be a little late for root divisions? I'm happy to share whatever I have. I read the previous posts with great interest and hope to learn as much as I can about this. I'll keep trying to get more information from my Aunt. Things like this make me really look forward to retiring in 2013!!! With family responsibilities and being the sole breadwinner in my household, there is not nearly enough time for gardening! I won't give it up though as it is the one constant source of joy, as I'm sure my fellow gardening fanatics feel the same way!
Katharine,
Of greatest importance, I hope your husband’s and your health is improving. Your really can’t enjoy your garden when you are not feeling well.
The first order of business is to identify and tag the Hibiscus which are of interest. Any pure whites and pure pinks, with no red-eyes should be high of the list. You should have seed pods on many of your Hibiscus and should start collecting pods and putting them into paper sandwich bags or large envelopes which have been labeled. I collect the pods and all, and separate the seeds when I have time. Seed cleaning is an indoor task for me.
In about a month, if not sooner given you location, your hibiscus will go dormant and shed their leaves. Using the tags you applied earlier dig up or expose the root-ball and divide it into several clumps. Replant the clumps you want to keep and remaining clumps can be traded as bare-roots in a plastic bag to retain moisture. Be sure to trim the old growth back to about 6”.
I have been doing some reading on how Hibiscus Moy Grande was produced but it will take me several years, as multiple back-crossed will be needed to recover the white color with a Hibiscus grandiflorus flower and leaf conformation. The white color is a genetic recessive, hence the needed for the backcrosses. I have already started the first series of crosses to that end. The main breeding line will be Hibiscus Blue River II and Hibiscus grandiflorus with some Hibiscus Moy Grande and Hibiscus Blue River II crosses as well. Now if I can only resist the temptation of start germinating the Hibiscus seeds too early, like I did this year.
Attached is a picture of an 11” Hibiscus Moy Grande flower which just bloomed today on a 6 month old rooted cutting. This plant should be spectacular next year.
Via DM I will send you my contact information and some Hibiscus I have which you might be interested in. I also have a lot of seeds from the species cultivar of Hibiscus coccineus known as 'Blaze Starr' which will breed true. 'Blaze Starr' successfully overwintered in my garden in Zone 6B and my daughter's garden in Zone 6A, this past winter under less than ideal conditions. I suspect that 'Blaze Starr' just might make it in Zone 5 with a little protection. I have many other Hibiscus seeds but they most likely will not breed true as they have mixed genetic ancestry.
Mike
William,
I sent you a DM on December 30, 2010 pertaining to a telephone conversation I had with Jack Hildinge at the The Garden Shop. At the time he indicated that he would be willing to consider a mix-and-match order of less than one flat if I sent him an Email listing what I was interested in. I didn’t send him an Email yet because it has been too cold to consider planting anything and more snow is predicted for April 1 in New Jersey.
When did you send the Email and did is include a list of Hibiscus? His cell phone is posted on line and a direct telephone call might be helpful. The number of Hibiscus I could order would be small because of space limitations but I would be interested if someone were placing a larger order a subset of which could be transshipped to me.
Mike
William,
Try calling him on his cell. I would be interested in purchasing one each of any Morrison Hybrids you order.
I have been doing a LOT of research online during this miserable winter and have been accessing research papers and marketing brochures which go back 120 years or more. I have much clearer understanding of the history of some of the native Hibiscus populations in the eastern United States and what happened to them. In the case of New Jersey I know exactly were, to within a few feet, the first wild Hibiscus moscheutos were collected for the gardening hobby in the 1880’s; there is a very small chance that a fragment of that population may still exist, I will know this summer.
I have stared documenting Meehan’s Mallow Marvels and am updating the following Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Meehan to that end. I edited the photograph of Hibiscus coccineus from the original source and the high resolution format should be suitable for downloading, printing and framing. H. coccineus was critical to Meehan’s Hibiscus breeding program. The recovered photograph of Thomas Meehan is also my doing. In the next month, I will be adding a new section on Meehan’s Mallow Marvels. Hibiscus Annie J. Hemming, the first patented Hibiscus, was a direct descendent of this line.
There is one gardener in Wayne NJ who has been breeding native NJ Hibiscus moscheutos for several decades now and has forms which I have never seen before. All he has been doing is saving and planting seeds from Hibiscus he likes. 120 years ago there was an unbelievable level of genetic diversity in the wild Hibiscus moscheutos populations of NJ. That is way there was so much confusion in Hibiscus species identification.
A lot of very interesting hardy Hibiscus cultivars have disappeared from the hobby in the last 110 years or if they do exist are an un-named Hibiscus in the corner of someone’s garden. In the early 1900’s breeders were working on a hardy double and a hardy yellow. They didn’t get a double but they came very close and that one still exists. This why, increasing the distribution of the Morrison Hybrids is so very important.
Katharine’s mystery white was obviously created by someone, very likely in her area of the country given its cold tolerance but I can’t find out who it was. As more data becomes available online we may be able to identify the breeder. Two years ago if you were looking for the Annie J. Hemming (AKA Hemming Red), you would have been unsuccessful, now because of my DG posts on the subject they can be located. Hopefully others will be doing the same with other Hibiscus and we will all benefit.
Mike
I just posted a story about Hardy Blue Hibiscus here:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1183323/
One of the links in my post is to this PDF:
Winter-Hardy Hibiscus Breeding Project
http://vernon.tamu.edu/library/files/malinowski/Hibiscus%20Breeding%20-%20INTRO.pdf
In the PDF, are pictures of Hibiscus with "spider-like" petals which look similar to one Katharine’s pictures posted below. Katharine’s Hibiscus predate the Texas A&M plants by over 20 years.
Mike
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