Is It JUST Me or is this Exciting!!

ok...i know i just moved here and all and although not new to daves....just these tropical forums i found when i posted this pic in another forum....it seemed like no biggy...??? i can take it...like a gardener..really...

do all your colocasia just mix with one another???

now..i'm not asking anyone to jump up and down like i did or anything.......but is this NOT exciting or what....??????


when i found this in my garden in all my years of working with plants i have never seen it happen...can someone educate me...does this happen all the time in a higher zone...i know i came from a sub zone 4 to a 9b....but i still thought this pretty cool...or someone tell me...is it common???

this inquiring mind just needs to know!!!

I can't tell from your picture whether you have two different Colocasias growing together (I do see some Mojito leaves beneath the leaf pictured). However, a bicolor leaf such as you've shown is always a possibility when growing a plant that exhibits what is known as chimeric variegation. Without getting too technical, the group of cells that ultimately formed the leaf were of two different genetic makeups, and their ultimate development just happened to divide the two types almost equally between the halves of the leaf. I've seen this happen with the chimeric white variegation seen in a few Alocasias (one half green, one half white).

LariAnn
Aroidia Research

lariann,

thanks so much for the information. i am somewhat familiar with the chimeric variegation....just a taste, and perhaps that is why i personally was so excited...as with the chimeric white variegation which is what i thought more common with the alocasia and with one leave white and one green...this is indeed my first experience in observing the formation with the black and green.

while i do understand some take the position there 4 types of chimeric variegation which plants may originate by grafting, spontaneous mutation, induced mutation, sorting-out from variegated seedlings, mixed callus cultures, or protoplast fusion, etc. i found this exciting to say the least! (i do think this was a spontaneous mutation).

i just wish i had the lab sources for reproduction! as i do understand a relatively low percentage of chimeral regenerants...:(((

thanks so much for your input!

sue

ps...forgot to add...yes, there are some mojito and midnight in the immediate area....as well as two cultivators of alocasias ....

WOW! tobee43 - regardless of the cause, that IS quite unique and amazing!!! Take lots of pictures of that one!!

o daylily i did!! i was so excited! LOL!! one never knows what one finds lurking bout their gardens!!

and thanks...LOL...i needed THAT!! i just knew there had to be one other person or two that would maybe appreciate it...i hoped! :)

this truly was a magically moment for me...however, LOL!! only my hubby and some neighbors seems to be excited...i took as many pics as possible..poor leaf! probably hates cameras now!

tobee43 - Don't know how anyone could not be excited, that is quite an unusual sight I would think in anyone's book!

thanks so much!! i was feeling so all alone in my excited until you and a few today helped me out of my "o so excited" plant depression!...i posted the pic and at least a few people responded.

i hope more of the same come up from the plant...now that will be exciting!!

Another way chimeric variegation can arise is via "infection", which is why some folks allege that this type of variegation is actually a benign virus infection. While this condition can arise from a number of sources, as you've pointed out, I understand two major types of chimeric variegation - plastid and vacuolar. The plastid variegation yields white, yellow, and various shades of green, while the vacuolar usually results in reddish or purple coloration. Sometimes both can occur on the same plant, which makes for a really wild-looking plant. I have one like that; it has pink shades instead of white where the plastid variegation is fully expressed (i.e. throughout all the tissue layers of the leaf).

The Mojito and Midnight both have vacuolar variegation. The white variegated Alocasia macrorrhizos and the common yellow-variegated Pothos both have plastid variegation.

LariAnn

I would love to have this beautiful plant, lucky you :)

How was your experience moving from zone 4 to a zone 9? I only dream about it all the time, zone 10 preferably! I sound insane, like a kid in a candy store :)

ahhhhhhhh lariann...of course the "welcomed" dreaded virus or "infection". LOL!!

i was speaking with liner farms the other day and dave was telling me that although they get "rare" variegation's they have no time nor patience that are required care for the mutants, and which they only release a very few of these tissue samples to the "rare" nurseries. hence...we see very few ae ae musa and they are quite expensive. although now we see more and more coming out of Thailand.

what is great fulfillment to me, is just the occasional mutation ....do you believe the vacuolar to be a more dominate variegation...or perhaps more stable chimeric variegation?

i would love to see the pink you have!

sue

josh...actually if you can believe this......

it was actually easier for me to create tropical designs in northern landscapes..(which was what i did for 25 years plus)..than to actually put tropical gardens into tropical climates... and yes...I AM that kid in a candy store!!...just can't get enough..

.but i still find myself...although i promised to slow down...i am always looking for the rare and unusual...just never had it happen in my own garden!! so i just i have to admit i really loved it. i'm rather anxious to see what else comes out of this colocasia...if it will continue to "mutate".

i did promise i would retire once i got here and found i just can't....it's in my blood!! darn it!! and just my luck....we had 12 days of below freezing here and i lost one of the only all white agave that was known....:((((((....i know it brings horticulture to the edge...dangerous...and i go where no one should...LOL!! white agave and mutated variegation...LOL,,what absolute fun!

water issues...not just lack of water only.... but the yucky chemicals..yikes we had to put 4 filtering systems on our property. i could never hurt my babies with those chemicals in the water or the heavy organics ....so i have special systems to filter and purify the water so the plants will grow properly...something i never gave any thought to before!!

here's a stuttgart canna that also happenstance on the same northern side of the house.......with an all white leaf..while i understand we have some interruption with the actual photosynthesis...it's still an interesting site to behold...healthy...maybe not..

lariann,

i really wanted to thank you for taking the time to answer this thread..


Aroidia Research is a highly regarded educational resource and a wealth of information for those of us who love using such wondrous plants as Alocasia x Calidora..aka...the "Persian Palm" which was if i recall correctly was one of earliest plants developed by Aroidia...(that is if i am correct) ..there are NO tropical gardeners without at least one in their collection! (not that i'm aware of anyway). so i would like to thank you and your researches for bringing these "ear marks" (pun intended).... to all the tropical gardens of the world!!!

This message was edited Jun 14, 2010 9:57 PM

The vacuolar is more stable in the sense that because it does not affect the plastids (the organelles that contain the chlorophyll), it does not weaken the plant due to reduced photosynthetic capability. Consequently, a plant can be totally red or purple and still thrive quite nicely, while if a plant is totally white or yellow with no green at all, it won't survive. While the most striking and brilliant coloration requires that some of the plastids be free of chlorophyll, it does make for a more fragile plant.

As far as permanency of the variegation pattern, the two are similar except for the fact that a plant can be nearly totally vacuolar and still able to function fully as far as photosynthesis is concerned.

For the record, vacuolar refers to a sort of sac within each cell; the red pigments are found there when this kind of coloration is expressed. The pigments are water-soluble and also pH sensitive, meaning they change color with changes in pH. I remember experiments we did in college, changing the colors of the pigments by changing the pH.

Thanks for the compliments! I'm happy to share my experience and knowledge - and in time, the new spectacular plants I am developing. Imagine, for example, a blackstem Alocasia as large or larger than the Borneo Giant. How about a plant like the Alocasia robusta, but as hardy as the Calidora? I have them, and more.

LariAnn

Some of my plants are so new, I don't yet have them pictured on the website. The "Black Giant" plants should reach full size by the September IAS show, where I may be able to show them for the first time (if I can find a way to transport them there!). I also have a "black portora", a plant with black petioles but leaves closer to the shape of those on my Alocasia x portora. These two black hybrids have the Borneo Giant in their pedigree, but the Black Giant also has another big Alocasia in it pedigree, the VangiGo. You can see the VangiGo here:

http://www.aroidiaresearch.org/vangigoh.htm

For the record, neither I nor anyone else I know of, has the VangiGo anymore. I obtained pollen from a large specimen (the one illustrated) but that specimen has since passed away. I've preserved the genetic material in three hybrids, though, and have done an F2 cross to recover the VangiGo genotype.

LariAnn

lariann

i saw the Vangie Go...absolutely remarkable....i have had a few of your Alocasia x Calidora that we measured at it's peek ...some of the leaves over 4 feet and in full bloom in one season in the northeast. however, only under the most intense growing procedures and pushing them to their limits in the short growing seasons up north.

so you have cross bred the genotype using the three hybrids?

can i please come to class?? LOL!! i am in awe of few....but you most certainly are one...

is the research area open to the public...real inquiring minds want to know....

o...and ps..i am just a tiny bit educated in the subject matter and so appreciate being able to have learned responses!!...my post was an attempt to simulate educational discussion and learn!!!

thank you again!

This message was edited Jun 16, 2010 11:41 AM

Speaking of spontaneous variegation. Here is a pic of a common weed I found in my yard last year. But it variegated instead of all green like it should be. So I potted it up and it came back variegated again for me after that hard winter. I think its pretty even if its a weed........

wow grub!! that's a very cool weed...i now would consider it a plant!!

I've seen variegated examples of that weed pop up around here as well, although I haven't tried to preserve them. I see them at least once a year. I think that weed is called Bidens pilosa.

I think your right on with the ID. The flowers look just like the images I googled. I do treat it as more of a plant now, it gets to sit with the other plants on a shelf that gets watered and tended to. No more lowly weed status for it!

well, grub, if you were to put it to a vote...i would vote to up it's status...it's well deserved!

Do all plants have the ability to variegate?

lariann...would most likely be able to answer that one completely and more correctly ...but i would like the answer as well!

i know now there is everything from variegated pine trees to variegated pachysandra!

If a plant has chlorophyll, then technically it can variegate, at least the kind we've discussed here (chimeric variegation. It doesn't have to be a flowering plant; I have a yellow variegated "cardboard palm" (Zamia fufuracea), which is a cycad. I've seen real palms variegated, too. You can find many more red and purple chimeric variegants out there, as they remain as strong as a non-variegated plant.

LariAnn

That's really interesting, is there a way commercially to variegate a plant without cross breeding or what not? A chemical or a process?

and also...lariann...could you please variegate the Alocasia x Calidora? just when your not busy and have the spare time to get the genetics down on that one! lol! i have to a pic of some that are so beautiful...oh.., if there were variegated it would be a sight to behold.

I'll get right on it! I can do it genetically because I already have one of the parents with white variegation. As soon as it blooms . . .

As for doing it chemically or commercially, I've read of methods to do so but they also interfere with other genes, so the plant comes out with other problems. I have an idea for a natural, non-genetic way of doing so, but I haven't given it a try yet. Too many other priorities! it is based on the fact that the more variegated plants you have in your collection, the more likely you will find a volunteer variegated plant that wasn't variegated before springing up nearby. The theory is that if it is either a benign virus or a benign piece of aberrant DNA, it can be transmitted by sucking insects. If so, you could make it happen by cultivating aphids on a variegated plant, then transferring them to a green one. That study would be worth a few scientific papers, I'd think!

LariAnn

First I need variegated plants. That is on my list to collect variegated ee's including the one above !/2 black and 1/2 green.

oh...now that is an extremely interesting theory....

lariann if one were to conduct a study could the simpson theory of diversity and density be used to measure the results....???? (that's the basic application i applied on the most except a "FEW" studies i have done, which have only been a few!)...or what other type of theory of study would apply......thinking to myself.... LOL!! the only GREAT thing about that application now is (and i am dating myself!) i had to do all the calulations myself...no PUTER help then!! LOL!! (can you believe i think i still have copies of those studies YEARS later!)

makes perfect sense!! since years of collecting varieties of variegated cultivars of different species of plants..that may be exactly what happened....and now that i have the climate, which is SOMEWHAT more controlled to conduct a "longer" term study" that would be awesome!!!

i have some understory diversity & heterrogencity studies that i also participated in...that was most cool....but it has been so many years ago...you are so up on all the current types of theory....i'm so impressed...and a bit in awe!! ...(yikes, using my 93 year old dads computer half the typing keys do NOT work...looks like i have my work cut out for me this weeks visit not only filled with family wedding events...but some computer updating is in order!) i never could type anyway and this makes it so much more difficult!

I'd just do a simple statistical comparison using a control (plants not exposed to aphids but in proximity to other variegated plants). If the aphid treatment yielded statistically significant amounts of variegants when compared to the control, that would argue strongly in favor of the variegation vector being not only transmissible, but being a benign virus or DNA fragment. Then the next step would be analysis of the cells to determine if in fact there is additional DNA present in the variegants that was not present in the green plants.

Oh, and the test would have to be done either with very small seedlings or with meristematic tissue (i.e. growing buds) because chimeric variegation is based on particular cells in the developing meristem being changed, while others remain unchanged.

LariAnn

Tobee,
I am very excited for you! Never quit! Keep on Keeping on. This coming from a newbie gardener.
Kristen

thanks so much for your kind words!! i'm atryin!! LOL

I have had a lot of "half and half" leaves over the years on lots of elephant ears. I think they are very special. Kind of like the split personality of the aroid world.

love the "splits" tho!

tobee43, how is your plant doing?

i have to get out there and get some pictures...the plant itself produced a few more leaves similar and is still going strong! although it would be nice if it just produced the half and half!