ID help, have posted 3 pictures

This ee has had a rough winter with spider mites so I yanked all the leaves off, so the leaves are small now.
It isn't getting much light yet, still too cold to take it outside.
The leaves get huge in the summer.
The stems are very very dark, the veins in the leaves are very dark and the leaf gets very dark the more light that it has.
It produces lots of runners and will root at every joint of the runner.
The leaves are very very shiney.
I can't for the life of me find the tag.

Summer picture of the leaf

Pictues as it looks now. In very low light.
Leaves are very shiney and has very dark veins, like the stalks.
It does not stand upright like some of my ee's. I has a tendency to hang down.

If you look closely you can see all the runner roots wrapped in the pot. The small leaf toward the front is coming from one of the runners.

Close up of the leaf.

The plant is definitely a Colocasia species or variety; my searches have yielded only that it is called Colocasia "Black Stem" or C. fontanesii; of course, the black "stems" are really petioles. The shiny leaf surface is unique for a Colocasia, whose leaves are usually matte, not shiny.

This message was edited May 3, 2010 10:42 AM

Thank you LariAnn, I just can't image what I have done with the tag...I have searched but didn't really see anything that I thought matched what it is.

Disclaimer: The author of this post does not claim to be a botanical expert. The quotes used are given solely to provide information from qualified experts. Credits are commonly given to the owner of scientific information and that is the sole purpose here. No attempt is being made to associate the author of this post with these experts as a peer, only a researcher that has access to the source.

LariAnn, I thought you might like to know Pete Boyce' opinion:
"This is the purple culton of Colocasia antiquorum Schott"

It is my understanding from several recent email exchanges he intends to break this and other names out of synonymy with Colocasia esculenta in a paper on related plants of the China region in a paper now at press. He said a variety of accepted characteristics for that species do not match this and other plants now considered synonyms.

I don't have your skills or those of Pete to comment.

Steve



This message was edited May 13, 2010 8:36 PM

This message was edited Jun 16, 2010 8:29 AM

For those that don't know, I failed to mention that Pete Boyce is a highly noted aroid botanist that specializes in Asian species.

He has done extensive work in Alocasia, Colocasia, as well as other aroid species that are native to Asia and often sold incorrectly in the United States as a form of "Monstera". Many of these plants are actually Asian plants (Alocasia and Colocasia are in their own genera) but many of the plants sold in the US as "Monstera" are found in the genera Epipremnum, Amydrium, Rhaphidophora, Scindapsus, Alloschemone, Rhodospatha, and Stenospermation.

Although the adult forms and sometimes the juvenile forms look like a Monstera as well as occasionally a Philodendron they are not closely related.

All Monstera and Philodendron species are found naturally in the American tropics while the genera named above are native only to Asia and neighboring islands.

Many such species are sold on eBay which is why you may find nearly identical photos being sold improperly under the name Monstera or Philodendron when in fact they are something else.

Steve

This message was edited May 13, 2010 9:59 PM

Wish I could find my notes on when I bought this, course that is probably where the tag is or the dog ate it. The best I can recall is I purchased it from a nursery at the Lawn & Garden Show. I haven't purchased anything off ebay, too untrusting I guess for that. If it rains this weekend that is going to be my goal to see if I can find my notes, receipt, or something. So far I haven't had any luck altho I am usually really good about keeping that info.

Thank you all so much, as it grows I will post more pics.

It truely is one of my favorites, because the dark shiney, kind of waxy dark leaves and dark dark red black stems.

I found a picture of the ee that started this thread. You can see the runners out of the pot and running on the ground.
Ignore the metal sticking out of the pot, a whole different conversation.

Happenstance dmailed me when I first listed this one as Violet Stem on Plantfiles, the sellers tag name, telling me it is actually Colocasia esculenta 'Fontanesii'.
I've since lost the plant to a freak cold snap, but grew it for years.
It throws runners, up to 8' long, like crazy.
Roxmale saw mine and she agreed it was the same plant she had.
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/227763/

Beautiful EE and I sorely miss having it around.

Each grower is certainly free to use any name they prefer but again I have to point out the top authority in the world of Colocasia and Alocasia species said, after I showed him the group of photos shown on another thread of this same plant, it is the purple culton of Colocasia antiquorum Schott

Aroid botanist Peter Boyce who works in Malaysia, China, Thailand and surrounding countries in order to study these plants on a daily basis will be the guest speaker at this years International Aroid Society show in Miami this September. He was quite firm in his believe. He is publishing a brand new book at this time trying to sort out many of these believed discrepancies.

Again, feel free to tag it any way you please but I would put my money on Pete Boyce' opinion and expert eyes any day of the week.

Please consider joining us in Miami the third weekend of September to meet Pete and enjoy his presentation.

Steve

I know that the names are changing constantly.
Even the experts are divided on many.

Colocasia antiquorum (L.) Schott var. Fontanesii work for you?

IAS lists it as Colocasia esculenta (L.) Schott 'Fontanesii'
http://www.aroid.org/genera/serveimage.php?key=4588

Hope to get to the show some year.
The pictures I've seen are awesome!

You should be sure and come! Since I am working with the board on all the presentations right now I am certain there will be names of good folks and teachers there you will recognize! If all goes as planned, expect to see some names from this site announced in the future. We hope to have the schedule settled and put in print shortly.

In this case, I don't think Pete is trying to make a name change, just a clarification about one that has been sunk into synonymy. I don't have this specimen in my personal collection but if I got lucky I would tag it Colocasia antiquorum Schott even though it is obviously a natural variation. I have printed all of the photos of this plant and made a file which I plan to show to Pete. I want to know specifically what he saw that led him to that identification.

Regretably, it is very difficult to make a qualified identification only from photos so it is very easy for opinions to differ. By adding the variation name that would likely be acceptable but it is my understanding after a series of exchanges with Pete the plant won't be known as a variation in his new text.

Someone needs to invent an internet site where we can all reach through the screen and handle the plant so we can count veins, look at the stem, examine the cataphylls or petiolar sheaths and a bunch more. Maybe then we can all come to a much easier determination of a species.

Know anyone capable of that?

Steve

Disney World

Just kidding.....or am I....rofl

One thing this plant does is RUN.
I'm talking Olympic Caliber.
We raised ours in a 10 gallon pot.
8' away and thru a small preform pond it popped up in our daisy bed.
From out of the drain holes in the pot.

Tremendous chuckle from me concerning the statement you wrote below Steve but then again would that not be the greatest invention in the ever so growing world of technology;-)

Rachel




Someone needs to invent an internet site where we can all reach through the screen and handle the plant so we can count veins, look at the stem, examine the cataphylls or petiolar sheaths and a bunch more. Maybe then we can all come to a much easier determination of a species.

I'd love to see it done but I'm not holding my breath.

The fact all we have to look at is photos that make it difficult to tell if a vein is raised or recessed, if there is a canal in the petiole, what color the roots actually are, to look closely at the midrib and see if there are tiny fine lines or tiny canals, or take a magnifying glass and look deep into the inflorescence to see all the characteristics a trained botanist uses to determine an accurate species make a good ID more akin to blind luck than anything factual. The leaves of aroids are very variable and with only a single photo it is often just luck when someone arrives at a good ID.

Pete Boyce is so good at his work I can only trust his opinion above all others in this particular group of plants. But even he will tell you he can be wrong by only having photos to observe.

Plants change as they grow through the same process of ontogeny any child goes through as they change into an elderly adult. Not every leaf of the same plant has to look alike due to natural variation. These aren't difficult concepts but you do have to do some research to understand them. If you don't understand how variation and ontogeny in plants can make a single species take on a dozen or more "faces", find a good article. There is fair one on my own website which has been reviewed by several scientists.

One thing anyone can do to help all the rest of us try to determine a good ID is to post a series of photos showing every surface of the leaf, petiole, stem, root and inflorescence that can be photographed. Describe anything you see, details are important. If we can also see the inflorescence then we have something to work with since many scientific descriptions are now available to the public. Otherwise, we are all simply making our best guess based on the information we "think" we see. Have you ever wondered why so many people offer so many answers when they see only a single photo?

Scott, who goes my the name OldDude on Dave's is the best I've seen yet at giving an individual who is doing their best to research the characteristics of a plant a descent shot an a descent ID. If you haven't followed his posts, you can really learn something about how to ask for help. Scott has been trained but what he does is not difficult. It just takes some research and there are lots of good folks on this forum that can help you understand what really needs to be seen in order to make a good ID.

Check out OldDude's posts!

If you want to try to understand ontogeny and variation and how they complicate the ID process then go to my site and look for the article on variation. There are several links from the homepage, one in the lower right column.

Steve
www.ExoticRainforest.com

One more thing. I have been accused several times of being a self promoter. I don't make one cent off the website and we do not offer anything for sale. You will not find advertising on the site and the only thing that even resembles an ad are the links I sometimes include to Brian Williams website and to Enid Offolter's Natural Selections Exotics. Neither pays one cent for any of those links.

I just spend a lot of time driving great botanists almost nuts in an effort to understand all of this myself. I am lucky that a bunch of them freely answer all my lame questions and allow me to quote them. Since I spent a good deal of my working life as a professional writer/photographer I enjoy putting what I've been taught into the form of text and photos. When I use their names it is only to give them credit for what they have shared. I am not a botanist and the only training I have is the many hours I have been privilged to sit in their offices or at professional meetings and pick their brains. I am retired and am not looking for work!

If anyone feels my references to my site are solely self promotion, please ignore my posts here along with the links completely. I just do it because I like to help a few others understand what some of the greatest plant minds on the planet have kindly shared with me.

Steve

This message was edited Jun 15, 2010 12:01 AM

Loved the website and would love to come this summer and see the Rain Forest in Arkansas. You are not that far from me and I travel to Oklahoma every few months. How much notice would you like to have and when is the best time of the year?

Again I want to thank you for all your amazing help.

Here's a shot that will answer some of you raised or recessed questions.

Closer

Flowering

Steve I never thought of you as anything but a seeker of knowledge.

There is another great resource that many don't often use and should.

http://www.aroid.org/

Ric

We welcome anyone to our little "rain forest" at just about anytime. I couple of days notice is always appreciated since we travel to Little Rock to see our adult daughters and all the grand kids on a regular basis but other than that, just call. The telephone number is near the bottom of the homepage of the site.

We have had more than a few folks just knock on the door and ask if they can see and it is rare we have to ask them to come back. The only time I can think of was last year when I had a crew working in there to do some major rework to the building. We do not charge any type of charge and if there are cuttings available I gladly share. Rachel has been here and I think she will tell you we do in fact grow everything the photos on the site indicate.

Thanks Henry, it was just that the subject has recently been approached again so I wanted to make sure everyone knew I am not here to sell plants or make money off our small botanical garden. I just love the plants and try to learn all I can possibly discover about how they are defined in botany as well as how they grow in nature. I've been told more times than I can remember "it is impossible to grow plants in a private collection they way they grow in a rain forest". I beg to differ. We have done it very successfully in a state that has a harsh winter environment.

I have never considered myself to have a "green thumb", I just listen to Mother Nature. Many growers would be shocked if they listened to her more carefully.


The only weekends I am aware of right now when we will not be here are the weekend of July 15-18 when I will be in Memphis telling a group how to duplicate what we've done with our "rain forest" and the third weekend in September when we always go to the IAS show in Miami.

Come anytime!

Steve

I will be down this summer and will let you know a head of time.

I just realized you're not far from where my Stepson was born.
Gravette!

Less than 30 minutes away!

Come anytime.

Steve

We're far from there now but I know the area.
Thanks for the invite.

Ric

I can definitely vouch that Steve Lucas does grow every plant shown on his website. I promise that anyone that visit's will be amazed and will most likely walk out the door with more knowledge concerning Aroids than when you first entered. I know I did and I will be re-visiting him and his wonderful family very soon and I am looking very forward to it.

I am following this thread as well being that I have the same plant in question which was tagged as (Black Stem), Colocasia fontanesii.

We're anxious to see you again Rachel!

By the way, that's Wizard on her cage! She "guards" the pond and the kitchen door but if you bring her a piece of banana she will love you forever.

Steve

Ok I will remember to bring banana. LOL