ID please, I am going crazy trying to figure this out!

This ee has had a rough winter with spider mites so I yanked all the leaves off, so the leaves are small now.
It isn't getting much light yet, still too cold to take it outside.
The leaves get huge in the summer.
The stems are very very dark, the veins in the leaves are very dark and the leaf gets very dark the more light that it has.
It produces lots of runners and will root at every joint of the runner.
The leaves are very very shiney.
I can't for the life of me find the tag.

Summer picture of the leaf

Pictues as it looks now. In very low light.
Leaves are very shiney and has very dark veins, like the stalks.
It does not stand upright like some of my ee's. I has a tendency to hang down.

If you look closely you can see all the runner roots wrapped in the pot. The small leaf toward the front is coming from one of the runners.

This message was edited May 2, 2010 10:55 AM

Another pic.
Close up of the leaf.

Thank you for taking the time to look, I sure would like to figure out the name of this ee.

Can you tell us if the upper surface of the leaf blade is as glossy as it appears in one photo? Also, can you confirm the coloration of both the veins and the petioles (stalks that support the leaves)? A close up photo showing the shape of the petioles (leaf stalks), the underside of the leaf and one of the point where the petioles enter the soil including what will likely look like "wings" on the top of the petiole will help.

Steve

The top of the leaf is very glossy.
The veins and stalk are very dark with a dark red tint.
I will post more pics.

another pic

picture of bottom
Hope this helps if not I will take more pics.

I've asked an aroid botanist friend in Malaysia to look at your photos. If he can offer an ID I will let you know. He is the best authority I know of to make a determination.

Steve

Steve I really appreciate you doing this. It is making me crazy trying to figure out what it is. I can't believe I lost the tag, I am really careful with the potted plants.

It happens all the time. I have a very large collection with quite a few plants having been gifts from botanical gardens that were cuttings of wild collected plants. Normally these gardens are very careful to give the exact collection number with the exact place of origin down to only a few feet along with the name of the botanist that collected it. It drives me nuts when I find one of these tags on the floor and cannot easily figure out which plant owns the tag! It is always fun to try to help others find the lost info for their plants!

By the way, this plant appears quite unique so I am personally interested in knowing its correct name. There are several possibilities but the most logical appears to be some form of Alocasia but it could be something else. I am always hesitant to offer a name if I can't actually see the plant. The color of the venation (vein structure) along with the color of the petioles will certainly help to lock it down.

I correspond regularly with the botanist I asked to look at it so hopefully he will soon be able to help solve your mystery.

Can you tell us how large the leaves grow and if you have ever seen an inflorescence. Do the leaves appear thick or thin? A photo of the spathe and spadix would be an absolute lock on the correct name.

Steve

I've been pouring through my files and photos on Alocasia species and now believe this is almost certainly Alocasia plumbea Van Houtte which was identified in 1875

That name is commonly used by sellers and collectors but according the the Royal Botanic Garden Kew (London) website CATE Araceae is actually a synonym of Alocasia macrorrhizos (L.) G.Don which was described earlier in 1839. Synonyms are only names given to a plant after the original species' name was published which have later proved to be a species already described to science. Growers sometimes prefer to use the synonym but in reality the accepted name is correct.

Alocasia macrorrhizos is found in the India to the Malaysia region and in much of SE Asia but I'm not sure where this dark colored natural variation exists naturally. It is not clear where Alocasia macrorrhizos occurs naturally either but it has apparently been distributed in tropical Asia for thousands of years as a food crop. It is now found throughout the region as well as in parts of the tropical America since it was introduced as an ornamental plant.

Many aroid species, including Alocasia, are highly variable and don't always take on the same leaf appearance, color or texture. This article on my site will help to make variation clearer: http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Natural%20variation%20within%20aroid%20and%20%20plant%20species.html Variation simply means the same species may take on many different forms, a common occurrence with aroids.

I hesitate to claim this is the true species name until I get verification back from Malaysia but you might try looking up the name Alocasia plumbea. Be careful how much you believe if you find it on generic garden sites since there is always tons of misinformation on those sources. I always prefer to search the International Aroid Society website www.Aroid.org, or scientifically based sites such as the Missouri Botanical Garden TROPICOS, the Royal Botanic Garden website known as the International Plant Names Index or CATE Araceae. If you try CATE you may have a warning pop up the site is "dangerous" but that is far from true. There is a certification agency trying to force Kew into buying a "certificate" and they have placed the "danger" waring on this site to try to force the purchase.

I use CATE almost every day of the year and never ever have a problem. I always wonder who appointed this "Internet Police" as the source of whether a site run by a prestigious botanical garden should be called a "danger". There are hundreds of thousands of sites that are truly dangerous and none of those are forced to buy a "certificate".

Steve

Don't depend on me for an accurate ID! This is botanist Pete Boyce' response:

"Steve,

This is the purple culton of Colocasia antiquorum Schott

Very best wishes

Pete"


There was a big discussion about Colocasia antiquorum on the aroid forum recently that led to some misunderstanding. Pete is in the process of publishing a brand new scientific paper on this species and I would yield to his opinion anytime. He is one of the top researchers in this field and I am certain there will be some on this forum that will disagree.

Steve

I would believe this to be Colocasia 'Fontanesii'. Here are the reasons for my ID. the tip of the leaves point downward the leaves have a sheen to them the stems are dark. If you look in the pot their are long runners running around the rip if the container. Also the back lobes of the leaves are fused together. These are all clues that make me believe it is Colocasia 'Fontanesii'. I have grown the plant for 15 years and I can usually pick it out quickly but their are some new hybrids and forms that are starting to look similar. Here is a list of the similar hybrids and forms but I am still pretty sure that I have it IDed right. Thanks once you get a flower we can be 100% on it's ID.


New hybrids that can look similar.

Dark water
Hilo Bay
Diamond Head if in shade
Maui Magic.

Because I think of Brian as the Colocasia/Alocasia Grand Puba...I'd trust his responses. I mean, who else has their own? Named after themself? On my deck?
I have the normal purple stemmed "taro" ...as most list them for sale.....but I also have this one, the very shiny leaved version, which is one of my favorites ever!
I think I bought it in Ohio, and then smuggled it back to Florida.

You out-law MerryMary...LOL I love the shiney ear on the ee and it is a great grower in my lovely zone 5. Doesn't mind the indoors at all.

Brian, as long as I've known you I never knew you had a botanically named plant in your honor! What is the name and species and who published it?

Steve

Steve no species have been named after me but one of my first hybrids was. The Alocasia Brian Williams which was a cross I did years ago between Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia odora.
I have been working with hybrids for sometime but I have a trip to Costa Rica coming up this winter so I hope to get some new species while I am down their of some aroids or other tropicals.

Thanks Brian!

One of my growing passions is to grow aroids that have been scientifically named in honor of friends. As I'm sure you do, I have quite a few including plants named after Dr. Croat, Simon Mayo, Joep Moonen and others. I know of several others that are in the process of being described in honor of mutual friends and some are very difficult to find including Anthurium boosii which was named last year after Julius. You may recall I bid the single specimen of Philodendron scherberichii which Dr. Croat named after David Scherberich well up into the hundreds of dollars a few years ago before finally abandoning the quest and giving up to others that were far more determined to possess it than was I.

There is a new species in the works for very good friends of the both of us and I am very hopeful that an announcement will be made in Miami this September on one. I have been working on this specimen personally with the supervision of Dr. Croat for almost 2 years now and the plant is stunningly beautiful. All we need is to collect, measure and photograph an inflorescence and the work will finally be complete. We are still learning about this new species but Dr. Croat is close to being ready to give it a name. If you haven't already, you can see the progress and the plant here:

http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Philodendron%20Limon%20Ecuador.html

Good luck in Costa Rica! You deserve a plant published in your honor! That is the ultimate reward to any serious grower.

See you in a few months!

Steve

I am sure you guys are use to seeing ee's flower but being a newbie I am not. One of my big ee's (not the one that started this decsion) not only flowered but now has seeds? They are bright red all up and down the seed head. I am surprised I had never seen that.

Can you post a photo? Most of these are distinctive. If it is an Alocasia or Colocasia the red berries would have developed in a hidden female floral chamber at the base of the inflorescence. It is not uncommon for an insect to pollinate these plants and sometimes they can self pollinate.

You may find the photos and explanation on this page valuable as well as fascinating:

http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Natural%20and%20artificial%20pollination%20in%20aroids.html

Sure when I go home I will post a pic, it looks alot like the one you posted, I think since I am doing this from memory. I did have two spathes at one time on that one ee and it is the only large ee in the garden room. So I am sure it is self pollinated. I will read up tonight. Thank you for posting.

Happ....I'm a plant rebel, it's true.....every now and then, when I'm especially sassy, I pinch a piece of coleus from some parking lot and root it at home! I don't know if they have plant jail or not, but I'm sure I belong there. : /
Last year, for some odd reason, all of my colocasia/alocasia seemed to send up seed spikes. Odd, but I took pictures to validate that it had happened!

I won't tell tales from school, but one of my favorite DG stories was from tropical plant guru Brian Williams, yep the same one above, and I'm sure he won't admit to/remember it...but all I'll say is that it had to do a plant named after a cross pollination...because the person it was named after "cross pollinated" too....LOL! I think about that every single morning when I'm in the back yard with my cup of coffee, and my little paint brush, cross pollinating everything in sight.

:D

You are so funny. If the plant police come and get you just call, I will keep bond money ready for you...LOL

Well has any of your "painting" given you a new hybrid?

I forgot to take pictures cause I am finally getting to haul plants out of the solar room and garden room to outdoors.
Taking tomorrow to try and finish up. Now that I took off they are talking about thunderstorms! But the seeds do look exactly like the ones above. I noticed I have two new spathes coming up. I need to wrestle this thing to the ground because like a fool, I planted cannas around it and now between the ee and a new pups coming up and cannas it is a mess! Live and learn!

Here are the pics of my seeds. Also I am including what not to do with a pot of ee's. I put cannas in with the ee, now I need to get them out. Suggestion on best approach, I don't want to kill the ee but need those cannas out.

Suggestions on canna extraction, with the least amount of pain to ee?

Your pod looks exactly like Alocasia odora. We have several that have already bloomed and the berries are currently developing inside the female floral chamber and will soon erupt.

I have 3 seeds drop off, can I plant them now? They are still in that red sac and it is soft not like a dried kernel of corn.
I just want to say thank you for all your help, it is so nice to find someone who knows so much and is kind of enough to help.
You are in Arkansas, what zone are you? I am guessing you have a greenhouse?
The front of my house is glass for solar confection and that is where part of the ee's and brugs overwinter.
Then I have what I call a garden room seperate from the house, it has a east window, and glass door, the 2 south windows, double glass door, and another window and 1 west window. It is heated and does pretty good, but I would really like to have a greenhouse attached to the front. Then it would be perfect! That is where this ee wintered over.

Do you transplant these ee's very often? It is in a big pot now but it is so large and has a very large pup off to the side.

Just squeeze the seeds out of the red berry. I always put them in a glass of distilled water and shake it well to allow the pulp to separate from the seed. A friend in Hawaii started my doing this several years ago and it works great.

Replace the water two or three times and in time all the seeds will sink to the bottom and the pulp will rise to the surface as a thick liquid. In some, the pulp can actually cause the seed not to germinate.

Pour the thick part off and wash the seeds again. I then pot them in small pots with porous soil covered with a layer of sphagnum moss. They root and come up in a week or two and once they have a good root system I progressively move them to larger pots

On some species we have grown so many I have to give them away or just throw them away. It is fun to watch them grow.

Steve

I agree with Alocasia plumbea.