I have a noob question:
If I start my seeds (I've got 3" peat pots) earlier than is recommended, and keep them in a high sun, high humidity room (a fish breeding shed) until it's safe to put them out weather-wise, will I be able to harvest earlier? Or is the time on the timeline of growing (does that make sense?) going to keep them from optimum growth/production? For example, will the weather be wrong for tomatoes that are bigger than they ought to be (because I planted them earlier in pots) when they finally do get out in the garden? Will they get too leggy. I'm going to start some mesclun outside now, because I figure I can put milk jug tents over them until they get established and the frost threat is gone.
Anyway, I hope my question is understandable - not very good at articulating what I mean!
Eileen
Starting Seeds Too Early?
I started lots of tomatoes last year beginning Dec 27. I put them out in the unheated greenhouse as soon as they got first true leaves and it got down to freezing several times. I gave them some weak water soluble fertilizer every week. I started each variety in a 4" pot, separated them into their own 4" pots and chose a few pets to to repot into 1 gallons. I also had about 10 that I planted into 2 gallon growbags. By the first week of March the ones in growbags had some good sized fruit and lots of blooms. The one in the 1 gallons were also blooming. They all went on to produce earlier than the ones that I'd kept in the 4" pots. The small ones were planted out only a week or so later and they were only a 2 or 3 weeks behind.
My conclusion is that they will grow as big and fast as their container allows. So if you want huge plants, you must move them to larger containers as they grow. I will do this only with a few varieties for very early production. I have people bugging me for large green ones to fry and Black Sea Man is ideal for that. They were not the first ones started but were the first ones ripe in 2009.
By waiting a bit longer to plant out, the increased warmth boosts them along ever faster. There are lots that will set fruit under cold conditions such as nights in the 40s. There are also many varieties that sulk and seem to suffer setbacks from the cold. It's a trial and error process I guess. I am just now going to start seeds and that's 2.5 weeks later than last year. This cold spell has me spooked and it will save a lot of stress without really delaying production. As soon as the danger of frost is past, you can plant out 3 week old plants and they'll soon catch up to the bigger ones.
What did you start?
You are warmer than I am in zone 5-6, I start onions, leeks, scallions and romaine in the first week of january.. romaine sprouts best at 40 degrees. They go out under plastic late februry and do take longer - but they also start earlier. Generally, the january starts are near ready early march - everything takes a month or so longer. They get more sun in the winter but ripen as soon as the temps pick up. the romaine that is usually ready in 6 weeks will be ready for me in 9 weeks. I plant root crop seeds and peas mid feb. I harvest almost everything by memorial day allowing plenty of time for a summer crop.
I hope this helps, every thing does take longer, but the roots grow, and most everything will ripen ahead of schedule.
-joe-
[quote="twiggybuds"]
My conclusion is that they will grow as big and fast as their container allows. So if you want huge plants, you must move them to larger containers as they grow.
I agree - if you want bigger tops earlier, you need bigger roots to support them. All plants will have a some transplant shock, the bigger the plant, and the bigger the change for the top & roots, the more transplanting sets them back. So sometimes a little plant can pass up a larger plant in growth - but not always. Try to have the top hardened off and the roots disturbed as little as possible.
Exception to the rule: Tomatos can root from the stem. You can take a tall lanky tomato plant and plant it sideways in a trench, with just the top of the original plant sticking out as the new transplant. The extra roots will help it catch up with where it would be if it hadn't been transplanted.
I hope I didn't misunderstand the question, I was thinking more and read the threads.. you, as far as I can tell from the weater reports, can put spinican romaine, arugula, green ice.. and probably mesculin out.. they need the 40's - 50's during the day to pop and will take frost, but no hard freeze (around here 25 and under is a killer for all but cabbage and broccoli)
my experience is leggy comes from lights too high or on too long. my lights are never on more than 4 hours. plants will get bigger - as I have experienced -- but as everyone poits out - so do the roots. a plant you baby too long may disappoint if it gewts rootbound.
get big pots, or the large trays this way you transplant less.. also in my experience is that a tomamto, pepper or cucumber plant will flower when warm.... if it goes to flower in the greenhouse, I have trouble getting the size to increase after that..
between all uf us, we can help better if ou tell us what is growing.. off the top of my head.. less light and cooler.
i am interestewd in how you do...and are you raising pet store fish, food, or a hobby?
-joe-
Twiggy et al,
I winter sowed Emerald Giant and King of the North bell peppers, as well as Wando English peas on January 9th. Well, everything has sprouted. This is my 1st time winter sowing seeds, and I expected them to not come up until 6 weeks from now.
Can ya'll tell me what to do with these seedlings, please?
I bought all new seeds this season, and I can't afford to go buy more seedlings if I lose these.
Please help me!
Thanks, in advance.
Linda
I haven't planted anything just yet. I wanted to get my tomatoes in early if possible, and my herbs. The rest I'm not as worried about getting in in advance.
Joe - my mother-in-law raises angelfish and sells them to local pet/fish stores. It's quite a process getting those eggs and having them hatch successfully!
So if I'm reading everyone correctly, I should start my tomatoes in a larger pot (like 10"?) so that it won't get rootbound in the 3" peat pots?
Hello Ms. Greenthumb. I don't know anything about the peas since my first ones are still in the pack right in front of me.
The peppers need to get a bit larger to maybe second set of true leaves and you need to thin them to 3 or 4 in each jug. You can put the extras in other jugs which will offer good protection down to almost freezing temps. I think there will be many days that heat buildup will be a much bigger concern. I'd try to find some brite shade with maybe a couple hours or early morning or late afternoon sun.
If you have anything like a cold frame or protected spot outside, you probably could just remove the top of the jugs and let them have all the sun they can get. Mine lived through very chilly nights last March but they can't take frost.
The aphids will come out very early and try to destroy them so good luck on solving that problem. The best thing I found was soapy water sprayed twice daily but it doesn't get them all. They disappear after 2 or 3 weeks when it warms up some.
NO mevnmart. You start them in small pots or peat pellets or something like that. I put 4 or 5 seeds in a 4" pot to start and will move them to larger sizes as they grow.
If you put a single seeding in a large pot, it almost guarantees failure. I don't fully understand the mechanics of it but it's as if all that damp soil or other media just overwhelms the little guys and they rot.
It really depends on how fast you want to push the plants but you can pop one out of whatever it's growing in and look at the roots. If the roots are well developed and visible all over the root ball, you can safely move it to a somewhat larger pot. I can go by whether roots are coming out the bottom holes of the pot. If they get the desired food, water and light, they don't get leggy. They do need a little elbow room so light can penetrate the leaf canopy. That's the hardest part when you're trying to start so many plants all at once.
Thanks, Twiggybuds!
I'll wait for those true leaves and then launch them outside to deal with life in their real world!
Linda
might as well chime in. i start all my seeds in two inch plastic conainers. they are the ones you see in any nursury as their seed starter kits. they usually come with 36 comprtments ndf have the plastic "dome" over it.
anyway, i start them in those containesw and as soon as they germjinate they are put under lights for 16 hours a day. after they get their second set of leave znd they e about 4 to 6 inches tall i put them into 4 inch containers and keep them there until they are ready to go into my garden containers.
Mevnmart -- you're probably starting to get the picture that there are almost as many ways of doing this (and everything else) as there are people doing it! I always start my tomatoes and peppers in the "6-packs" that flowers, etc. come in at Wal-Mart or whatever (each "cell" is probably about 1 x 1-1/2 inches and maybe 2 inches deep). Tomatoes I start around April 10th to plant outside June 1st, peppers get started around March 24th or so to plant outside at the same time as the tomatoes. They could go outside earlier with protection, but I have a greenhouse so they do well in there until they go outside. Around May 1st they all get moved up to bigger (3") pots, either peat pots or plastic. Although every year I start a few earlier, it seems the smaller ones pretty much catch up anyway -- probably something to do with the daylight hours as much as anything.
Joe - you only leave your lights on for 4 hours? That's really interesting -- like Herbie, I've always kept mine on for about 16 hours, which is quite a difference! Now that I have the greenhouse, the plants get moved out there as soon as they get a couple of inches tall and I haven't had any problem with them being leggy, but BG (before g'house) they definitely did. Are your plants just in darkness for the other 20 hours, then?
Sandy
I read somewhere that Brassica family plants should have at least 4 true leaves before setting out. I know 2-4-6 leaves is splitting hairs, but I assume the author said it for a reason (not bolting or buttoning?)
sandy, I don't have any useable southern windows... only on our 3 season porch.. I am unsing a double ballast 1-2" over the seedlings and i light them up lately for around 3 hours. When the light is off, th indirect sunlight in the room gets to them.And like most of you, they go onto the enclosed, unheated porch to harden - than under the hoophouse. I am only on my third year of starting on this scale indoors.I used to winter sow with great success, I still put seeds in the soda bottles, as that rarely ever fails.
There are a few great ideas in this thread, I am going to try a few.
Herbie, what kind of lights are you using? I was expecting to raise the time lit up gradually, last year was a leggy year where 25% made it into the gaeden and survived.
-joe-
Okay, so my new plan involves starting the plants in the 3" peat pots and then transferring the larger plants to milk jugs and coffee cans (the plastic ones) with holes punched in the bottom for drainage. I'm going to put them in the window of the fish room and maybe suspend a flourescent light bar or two over them. (This will help with photosynthesis?). I'll just start some of my plants and not all of them early, that way I will hopefully get them staggered a bit.
Secondary question: Determinate tomatoes - are they really ready all at once? I have always stuck with indeterminates so I could have tomatoes over time and I wondered if I use a determinate variety, will I have to pick them all at once and process them together, or do they ripen over a short period of time (so I can do a batch or two every week)? Thanks guys for all of the feedback. Just a reminder of why I love DG so much!
Determinate tomatos tend to have their tomatos all at once, especially the mid- or main- season ones recommended for canning. However, there is quite a range of "determinate", some would be more accurately described as "large semi-determinate", which have more of the habit of indeterminate. I have never had a determinate run out of tomatos and be completely finished. I usually go with an early tomato, a later larger tomato, and a cherry tomato - cherry seems to always bear over a long period. Most people like heirlooms, which are less likely to bear all at one - I prefer hybrids with as many letters after their name as possible.
Mevnmart I grew a lot of determinates last year and they are individuals. Some are bred for what's called a concentrated set which means they get ready about the same time. These are intended for processing and often are mechanically harvested or just picked once or twice.
Many others ripen over a fairly long period of time. I had several that produced for 2 months. I don't really know what mine were capable of because June was so abnormally hot that all my tomatoes shut down by July. I'm still not clear on these labels because some of the determinates attained their stated height and then started new growth from the bottom up as though they'd have produced a whole new round of fruit on new branches.
Then there are the dwarfs, trees and semi-determinates to further confuse the issue. I also grew several of each and they all appeared to want to continue production.
Most of the determinates will ripen fruit much earlier than the big indeterminates but then again it varies by variety. My plan is to grow a mix again and hope for normal weather so I can truly evaluate them.