I am planting tomatoes, mostly beefsteak types, this Spring, in self watering 5 gallon buckets, I'm going to be using about 50 of them, how far do I space the buckets away from each other so that they have room to spread and get enough air circulation? I've heard 1 1/2 ft apart, someone else said two, and someone else said 3?
I need some advice about tomatoes
I think it depends on how you plan to support them and how much pruning you will do. I grew my big indeterminates in 14" pots that were crammed together. I used bamboo stakes. I also grew short determinates in 3 gallon pots with a bamboo stick. They all need more than one stake and many will just go crazy so you have to tie them up 2 or 3 times a week. The growth behavior is different between the different kinds and that info is impossible to get. I mean some are well behaved with a smaller footprint while others want to single handily make a jungle. I think I'll try to give mine 24-30" next time and most will get more than 1 stick.
There's a fine line between offering air flow, shading each other and the fruit. You've got to remember that all the energy comes from the sun via photosynthesis but that sun will also burn up your plants and scald the fruit.
experiment, do a control group of each distance as long as u can stand it n ck progress. they will probably take anything u give them, but u may have preferences when push comes to shove at dealing with all of them,
I garden in the square foot method and can fit tomatoes into 1 sq ft. Indeterminates I try to prune suckers and tie them up, but like twiggybuds said they have a mind of their own. In a perfect scenario, I would have 2 sq ft for them, but I can make it work in 1.
Experiment with the distances and see what happens;o)
heres what i do and it works out fine. my containers actually touch each other. i have a 6 ft stake in the middle of each bucket and most of the time the branches of each plant support each other. i do use some garden string to do some tieing from the outher branches to the individual stakes.
Wow, thanks everyone. I am going to build a staking system around them. Using probably a 2ft by 8ft boards then tacking long board sticks to that. I need to figure it right the first time, as I'm using 50 containers, which means 50 mater plants.
joy
joy - You will have to water your 5 gallon buckets two or three times a day. Personally, I prefer a 10 gallon or larger bucket. As to space between plants, I think 18-24 inches should do it. You will have to tie them to something, or they will flop over onto the ground - which is how they grow in nature. If you are going to use stakes, put them in the pots when the plants are very young, otherwise you willl harm the roots.
Honeybee is right about the water problem. I grow mine in containers sitting in 2-3" of water. I only have to water every 2 or 3 days. The constant availability of water, nutrients and sun is all they need for great production.
The 50 buckets I'm using are self watering buckets I made from a 5 and a 3 1/2 gallon buckets with a reservoir in the bottom bucket, water fill tube and drain hole for excess water, the reservoir will always be full. I'm going to fix up a staking system around all the buckets and hook up a self watering drip system on a timer.
joy
Here's how I do it. I didn't have my stakes placed in this photo but some of the small plants got 1 and most of the large ones got 2 or 3.
I kept adding more plants until they were really crowded. It worked. Sometimes the limb from one plant was tied to the limb of its' neighbor. It was a big mess but I got to do whatever it takes to maximize the space.
Those are beautiful tomato plants.
Twiggybuds: How well did they produce?
joy
It works fine. This was really my first year doing it this way. In 2008 I had 4 plants that did well so this year I went overboard with tomatoes and peppers. It stops the blossom end rot and I don't think it takes any more water than I'd normally use growing them in my sandy soil. June was very hot and they all had just about burned up by early July. In 2008, I only grew Rutgers Select and Porter which did survive to bear again in the fall. From July-October it rained almost daily and disease and caterpillars wiped out my fall crop.
The black pots do heat up more than the root zone would in the garden. I don't think that really harmed them though because the plants were shading each other. They're real easy to pick, don't get real dirty and weeding is easy.
I didn't want monster 7' plants and I'd say growing in the small pots does limit the size of the plants but it's ok for me. I had quite a few that got to 6' and had to prune the suckers to keep them from completely going crazy. I was very satisfied with the overall production.
Fabulous. A friend of mine said if you pinch the tops off, they will bush out instead of up, and I actually have given that some thought also, have you done that before?
joy
Joy I'm still totally confused with the terminology determinate, semi-determinate and indeterminate. If you read about it here and on other sites people offer explanations that make sense on paper but don't jibe with my experience.
For instance: The prevailing wisdom is that determinate = short and indeterminate = tall. I've grown a 16" dwarf that is definitely indeterminate and also few more that never get more than 3'. I've also grown several determinates that got to 6'. There are also indeterminates that stay 4' or so. So height is not a defining factor at all. That's one thing that caused me a lot of grief by putting short stakes by things that got tall and tall ones by things that stayed short. I had a big mess but learned a lot.
Another myth is that determinates are reportedly supposed to set all their fruit and ripen it approximately the same time and croak. The truth of the matter is that many determinates keep putting on new growth at the leaf axils just like indeterminates. Several of mine ripened the fruit over an extended period and when they reached their genetically programed height they started all over again from the bottom up with new growth.
I had some determinates named Early Wonder nearly killed by frost. I figured they were history but after a few days they started new growth like crazy all along the main stem. I had one of their siblings still in the greenhouse so I got to see what the normal growth was compared to the ones that had had their heads frosted off. The damaged goods stayed shorter, got much bushier, set and ripened much more fruit and did it earlier. I wasn't too impressed with that variety but I'm going to pinch some others this spring.
Indeterminates are the stars, the darlings of the tomato freaks. They get all the raves and I admit they can produce superb tomatoes. Many of the discussions I've read go on and on much like wine tasting critiques. It is an interesting trip to have many colors and shapes in your own backyard. They go on and on about 9' plants, monster cages, 20 gallon pots filled with $50 of "mix". I was so intimidated it's a wonder I had the courage to even try them. I don't say much on those forums because I get the same tomatoes with a free 5 gallon bucket, free bamboo sticks and $1 of the cheapest dirt Walmart sells.
Indeterminates will try to grow a new stem at every leaf axil. You will have an extraordinary jungle if you let them go. It takes vigilance to pinch them out as they occur. You can grow them with 1 or 2 main stems and when they get as tall as you want, you can pinch out the top. The big difference is that they aren't as quick to try to regrow from old stems. They want to keep putting on from the top and tips of any new stems you allow. That's why people end up with 9' plants. They grow those same plants in greenhouses and they get to 15'.
I will continue to grow both and pinch to my heart's content. They do need plenty of leaf cover to protect the fruit from sunscald and also for photosynthesis so you have to be somewhat judicious. Just have fun with them. I will begin starting seeds in a couple weeks and by mid February I'll have a few pets in 1 gallon pots for the earliest fresh ones. I have a 12 x 25 piece of row cover for one bed and will try to put them out in their permanent pots by March 1. The others can straggle along according to the weather forecasts but I'd like them all out by April 10.
Twiggybuds: I found the perfect staking system on this site, so am copying it this Spring/summer. It's one I build around the plants and let them do as they please; but, I will pinch them to get them to grow out instead of up, whether they will or not is just speculation right now. LOL The staking system will be cheap to make and less cumbersome than the tomato cone type thingies that never wanted to stay straight last Spring, mine always tilted on me. I also plan to have a self watering drip system hooked up by then also. I, of course, hadn't planned on starting my tomatoes from seeds until February, the last two weeks of February,I live in the coldest city in FL, so will probably plant 60 in the next to the last week of Feb, and then plant 60 more a week later.
joy
twiggybuds - are those pond liners? Hubby and I have been scratching our heads trying to figure out a way to water the garden without a drip irrigation system. Our veggie garden is on a slope, and I've read that with a drip system, the row at the bottom of the hill gets most of the water, while the row at the top sometimes gets none.
Hubby is 77 and watering is just getting too much for him - I'm at work in the mornings, and don't get home till the mid-afternoon, when it's too hot to got out in the garden with a hose.
I wonder.... If I put in pond liners with a generous layer of perlite, covered by my usual soil mix in a raised bed if that would work. I don't want to grow everything in pots.
Honeybee it is black 6 mil builders plastic. The kind they put under concrete slabs when they build houses. It comes in a 10 X 100 roll and the last time I bought a roll it was $54 at Lowes. Pond liner is a lot more sturdy and costs the earth. I can get 2 years out of the plastic if I'm careful not to puncture it. They also have the clear. I use the black to block weeds.
My setup works just like a raised bed and I've often thought about doing that instead of the pots. My pots get dry as dust in the top few inches without rain so there is no way that it compares to standing water. You would not need the pearlite at all. The whole point is to provide a constant water source and the plants have enough sense to seek their comfort zone. You would have to water new transplants and seeds a bit extra until they are actively growing.
I try to make my beds as level as possible and you'd probably have to do a little terracing-like on your slope.
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1029953/
Here's a thread where 4 of us are discussing our experiences with this method.
Joy did you leave off a link to the trellis system? I was wanting to see it.
twiggybuds - thanks for the link, I read through the posts and got some good ideas, especially the one about placing buckets in a kiddy pool. My daughter saves her kitty litter buckets for me, plus I have hundreds of pots lying around!
I work for a builder here in NC, so I might be able to get plastic at a discount.
My reasoning for using a layer of perlite is because I know roots will not "drown" in it. I had thought the top layer of the raised bed might dry out, but with a good layer of mulch, hopefully this will not happen.
My only thought about the kiddy pool is when it rains, the water will fill to the rim and the roots might drown - have you experienced this? I could put a good layer of perlite in the pool and place the buckets on top, this should prevent the roots from drowning when the pool fills with rain. How deep are kiddy pools?
Very important point. When you use the kiddie pools you have to make an overflow hole to keep them from filling up and drowning your plants. The proper depth will depend upon the depth of the pots you put in it. Depth is only very critical for the 1 gallons. 2, 3, 5 and buckets can all do with 2-4" of water.
I just remove sod and lay on the plastic sheeting. You can even lay something like 2x4s on level ground and use plastic for a bed. The roots of most all plants can adapt to variable conditions so long as there is oxygen and water freely available. Witness the success of hydroponics.
twiggybuds - thanks for the tip, I didn't think of putting holes in the pool (duh)
I've grown houseplants standing in saucers of water - I filled the pots 1/3rd with perlite, and then put a very light soil mix in the pot. Makes watering so much easier. I never thought of adapting the concept to outdoor growing.
It's exactly the same principle. Houseplants don't grow as vigorously as our vegs so they're much more easily overwatered.
I use the cheapest potting soil and straight cow compost I can get from Walmart or Lowes. This year they had some awful looking stuff but it worked. I find that anything at all will work so long as it isn't full of peat. I want the pots dry in the top and moist in the middle. The roots suit themselves. Sometimes they get so dry I have to top water with the hose because they don't really wick up the water. Gravity rules. It is very common to see tomato roots exiting the holes in the pots and growing out as much as 18" in the water. I think this adaptability allows me to grow larger plants than could normally happen in small containers.
Twiggy buds: It's really quite simple, Cyrus had them for his EBs on the top of roof. You take the thin long stips of wood, putting them together cross wise (don't know if that is vertical or horizontal) with some going up and down, attatching them all together and then what I'm going to do is attatch that to some thicker two long strips of wood that are reinforced with two short strips of thicker wood to make a box around the buckets, attatch the long thin stips thingy and presto, a self-,made staking system. I think this link will hook up to a pic Cyrus' idea:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=6832593
joy