I have this Hawaiin Umbrella Tree (arboricola schefflera) that has some umber root growth. When I pulled it out of the pot I see just one large mass of solid roots with almost no dirt left at all. The Bonsai is so root bound that it pushed its self out of the pot and even sent roots intothe pots next to it, what is the best way to trim this without killing the tree?
You may find the pictures & info at
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1055230/
to be of some interest. Though I didn't tackle the scheff there as a bonsai prospect, the only thing I would have done differently would have been to remove more of the larger roots. Let me know (at the other thread) if you have additional questions.
Al
Since I did not see info that really related to my problem then I will post more pictures....
This is a bad shot just so you can get the idea of size. Notice the coffee mug to the right.
This is what the nagari looks like after I cleaned all the old soil out...
front side after the pruning...
Back side after trim...
The last photo is of the bottom after the trim...sorry for all the post I just want to make sure you get a good idea what has been done thus far.
My question is you can see that even after I trimmed the roots it still takes all the pot up, so should I trim it more, leave it like it is, or find a larger bonsai pot?
Sorry for using this tread but I did not want to take over another thread to make 5 post like I did here.
Thanks for the help.
The roots are a mess. Please don't take that as criticism of either you or the plant - it's just an observation. I don't know where you are in your bonsai journey - whether you're very new, or have been working at it for awhile. My guess is pretty new, so what I tell you might be difficult to understand - understand where I'm coming from. The roots are all-important. If you have a plant with good roots, you can almost always make a good bonsai out of it; but if you have a plant with poor roots, you'll be hard pressed to make a good tree out of it.
I really do understand that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I would never try to take away the satisfaction you get from your tree(s). If it's beautiful to you, then I'll always look at you and the tree as a beautiful couple (I'm serious).
An experienced bonsai practitioner KNOWS that the priority is to get the roots straightened around. You have roots that are still encircling and potentially girdling other roots. They need to go. Scheffs are genetically endowed with great vigor, so they will tolerate lots of indignity being heaped on them - especially in your climes like yours. I would go much further in reducing the roots - removing roots that cross others and those that grow back toward the center. Remove roots that don't radiate away from the trunk, and concentrate on the roots directly under the trunk and remove the fattest roots first.
The top of your tree is really stretching out, and you need foliage closer to the center of mass. It especially needs to be shorter. To achieve this, reduce every branch to 2 or 3 leaves (not leaflets - the leaves are compound leaves and are made up of many leaflets). It's ok to do this at the same time you reduce the roots. The tree will back-bud and offer you many other pruning options in a few months, something that's needed.
You're doing the right thing by repotting. It will really revitalize the tree (appropriate soil is important). Secure the tree so it can't move in relation to the pot. This will fractionalize the amount of time it takes for the tree to reestablish.
I'll stop here to give you a chance to ask questions, or to seek other help if you're thinking what I suggested is too drastic.
Al
Firstly, thanks for your time. My experiance in Bonsai has been a long one but very limited in tree types. I have been doing Bonsai for around 16 years but only with JMs, my favorite tree. I just moved to a organic farm and was put in charge of the Bonsai and greenhouse so the trees have not been taken care properly for who knows how long just because the owner does not have time.
Please do not get me wrong I do not claim to know much about Bonsai at all but I do know the basics. I have about 30 Bonsai, all of which are types of trees I have never worked with, in a zone I am not used to (I am from zone 5a.) When you put this all together it really is over whelming...lol.
What you where telling me about the Bonsai roots is what I thought needed to be done but I wanted to make sure with some one else that might have more experience with trees that have such vigorous roots and aerial roots. I forgot to say that I have not done any pruning of the branches on the tree just some of the roots. It does not look like it but I trimmed about 75% of the roots off and most of the larger roots too, except that I left the larger roots that will be on the top of the soil due to the fact that I like roots that are big and partly exposed.
OK - to bolster your resolve: you can see from the pictures in the thread I linked to upthread, how extremely hard I cut back both roots and the top. Because of the influence that bonsai has on my approach to repotting, I'm pretty sure I even took off more of the roots before I repotted it, but I don't remember for sure - it wasn't a tree I entertained the idea of as a bonsai, so I would have been less particular about the roots. If you look at the picture with the lady that got the tree standing next to the plant, you can see how willingly the plant broke back - and that was a tree growing in MI. I would expect scheffs in your neighborhood to be about as cooperative as they get.
Al
Very helpful discussion of root trimming, Al, thanks. I always love your postings!
It's very kind of you to say so, Granitegneiss. Thank you.
I hope everyone had a Christmas filled with lots of good fellowship, good fun, good food, good cheer, and lots of love, and that 2010 holds much promise for the same.
Al
Al, why not use Vermiculite?? I know it may be a silly question but Hopefully you will answer. I am very new at this and have read several of your suggestions and help.
Do you mean as a component of a bonsai soil? Vermiculite is very water retentive and collapses quickly. It is imperative that bonsai soils retain their structure. The best soils have a component or components that gets its water retention from the internal porosity porosity of the components, which allows us to use particles large enough so no perched water collects between pores.
To visualize what I mean, think of a jar full of marbles. It has wonderful porosity in the air space between the marbles, but the marbles hold no water. Now, think of little balls ow oasis or rockwool, the same size of the marbles. These products are like little sponges, only more rigid. They hold lots of water, plus, they offer the same air porosity as the marbles. This property is what makes Turface so valuable in bonsai soils. It offers the same air porosity as other particulates of the same size, but it also offers excellent internal porosity for water retention - much greater internal porosity than pumice or Haydite, other commonly used soil ingredients.
Since vermiculite collapses very quickly, it fills the pores you find between particles and causes a layer of saturated soil (perched water) at the bottom of the pot. This is death in the shallow containers we grow in.
If a soil holds 2" of perched water, it holds the same height of perched water in any container, no matter it's size/shape/depth. If we happen to be growing in a 2" deep pot, and are using a soil that supports a 2" perched water table, when we get done watering that container, the soil is 100% saturated and will not drain (unless we know how to trick it into draining). This regularly kills plants and is one of the (if not the) main reason(s) that people new to bonsai get frustrated and give up - they don't understand the science of water movement and retention in soils.
IMO, the two most important aspects of bonsai are soil science and physiology. By physiology, I mean you need to know enough about plants to be able to keep them alive, or the 'revolving door' method of replacing plants every time one dies will soon see frustration taking precedence over the sense of reward.
If you had to use it, perlite would be a better choice than vermiculite (based on structural stability); and Turface, pumice, Haydite, calcined DE would all be superior to perlite, based on internal porosity. Stability, and the perched water issue, is also the reason we use pine or fir bark in lieu of peat as the organic component of most of our soils.
Al
I believe I understand. It is more advisable for the water
to travel through , whereas the Vermiculite will hold it in and "drown" the plant.
The pine bark will hold some of the moisture but not enough to cause the plant to be of any harm.
Thank you, that explains it very well.
RRM - I don't know if you'd read this, and though I admit to a certain amount of prejudice, I think it explains soils for containers very well. If you decide to read it, pay particular attention to the recipe for the 'gritty mix' at the end. It's an excellent and flexible soul for bonsai and any other long term plantings.
Al
Oh, Mr. Al, i will read it. I respect your advice vey much. that is why I ask the question in first place. I know of pumice but the other items mentioned I do not. Would you prefer I send you a d-mail so as not to hi-jack this thread? I don't wan to have anyone upset by my questions.
Thank you for the help.
That was a very good way of describing the soil. Since I now live in Hawaii I like to use very small volcanic rock mixed with homemade soil from compost. Yeah, I know that most of the time that is not the best idea but we are in El' Nina this year and so the cinder helps with aerating the soil and the rich composed soil holds in the moisture in this heat. So far they are holding up nicely.
This message was edited Jan 5, 2010 3:41 PM
There will be a wide variance in what works best locally and what suits individual growing styles, so there is no right or wrong soil; though there are some basic guidelines that are best followed ..... like 'try to use ingredients that ensure the soil maintains structural integrity for the expected interval between repots', and 'it's best to try to ensure the soil holds no perched water, or you at least have a strategy to remove/control it'.
Al
I buy the lava rock, I don't know if that is the same. I bet I could take a hammer to it.
I want to think you all for the advice and help.
