Questions re rooting in vermiculite

I dipped cuttings from my canes in hormodine #1, put them in a plastic sweater box filled with vermiculite and placed the box on the propogation mat in the greenhouse. I finally have roots! I usually just stick the canes in soilless mix, so this is a new experience. When do I move the plants over to pots of mix? Can the vermiculite be reused? Would they have rooted more quickly if I had covered them, or does that lead to rot? And if try to do rex leaves, do those need to be covered?

I tried this technique with rex leaves. So far not very good success. Perhaps it's my technique. The marmaduke leaf cutting I placed in the box is still alive after 2 months but I see no mini plant.
I had better luck when I stuck a leaf inside a mouth rinse cup filled with vermiculite this summer. It took 2 months to get a mini plant and I planted it in soil and now it's huge.
I have not tried canes though. I had a lot of algae growth so I did not reuse the vermiculite. Maybe Butch can elaborate.

I don't like vermiculite. A little bit in a soil blend is okay, but I have never done well with it for seeds or cuttings. Perlite works a lot better for me as far as no rot and a reasonable chance to get a plant out of it. If I had to choose one thing to root in (I usually do 50% perlite and 50% soilless mix) I think I would pick perlite.

I think you can reuse it, and if in doubt, try it to see :). I sometimes have watered soil with a hydrogen peroxide solution before using it again. I don't know if it does anything, but I think it does, and it sounds fizzy. I think once the canes have roots quarter to half inch, you can move them on. If you do rex leaves, wait to see a baby plant before you start relocating, or you may damage the tiny new growths. If you are in a greenhouse, I don't think you need to cover them unless you have really dry heat. My understanding of covering them is to help retain humidity so the soil doesn't have to be too saturated which promotes rot. It could also be to prevent fungi spores, but it doesn't sound like a problem.

I have had good luck with rex leaves on paper towels--better than just trying to root the leaf. Cut your leaf in wedges with each wedge having a little slice of the petiole. Lay these on wet paper towels in a warm place and cover-- I have used old taco bell containers-- anything with a clear lid. The roots will go into the paper towels. when I start to see the little plant foming- I tear out that piece of the paper towel and lay it on top of the soil in a pot--covering the roots with a little soil too. I keep them domed until the plant is good sized and then wean themout gradually. There is a really good article on this on the ABS website: http://www.begonias.org/SOS/SOS_10.pdf

I know Rob's Violets (The Violet Barn) roots their begonias in vermiculite. I quit using it 20+ years ago because it packs down and I didn't see a lot of benefit in it for what I was doing at the time. It does seem to be in a lot of seed starting mix. I prefer perlite since it provides excellent aeration and drainage and is sterile (no sterilization) for begonia cuttings.

Anyway there are plenty of ways to root begonias including water rooting. I've rooted leaves in sand, potting mix, Oasis, bark, and even gravel but these are just experiments. I've tried the paper towel method too without a lot of success (Rekha has demonstrated Bill Claybaugh's method to the Atlanta Begonia Group which she is also a member) because it dries out too fast for me even in a plastic container and is also a host for mold.

My favorite method is to use an aluminum baking pan with plastic lid, poke holes in the bottom, fill over 1/2 way with perlite, water well, insert cuttings, and cover. Place under lights and check for dryness weekly. If growing outdoors place under a shrub to provide filtered light. Most cuttings will take in a week or two.

Continue to experiment to find out works best for you!

Hm,,, do you do this in greenhouse in winter... as in now?

I use two pans - one for drip, the other for the cuttings with plastic lid. They go under lights 12 hours a day. Winter is not the best time to root but it still works pretty good.

OK, I have 6 cubic feet of perlite in the greenhouse. That should last the rest of my life. I have the aluminum cake pans with cuts on the bottom and plastic lids, a propagation mat and lots of cane begonias. (I made a list of my begonias - over 125 varieties, don't know how many plants. I then burned the list so DH will never know). In order to root the canes in these pans, it looks like I'm going to have to cut them short. How many nodes to you have above the perlite, and how many nodes in the perlite?

Canes can be cut short or laid horizontally or leave the lids off (canes aren't as particular about humidity as leaf cuttings are).

Here is an example of a full tray (heating tray from Sam's where two half size trays fit perfectly) of cane cuttings from last winter.

This message was edited Dec 31, 2009 5:05 AM

Here is a tray of Concord (they actually looked better cut - much fuller and no legginess).

Orococo (sold to me as Morocco) laid horizontally.

richmondensis in a half tray.

Caribbean King with some volunteer euphorbias

Challenger

Purple Curl

One more as an example - Red Umbo (at least I think it is - bought from GHW as crassicaulis which it may have some genes from it)

I gave most of these away to our local club but had a couple of pans go in a tailspin - one was My Special Angel and another was a large cane with big polka dots. They looked great Jan. and Mar. but I kept getting put off on bringing them to the meeting so by May when I was allowed to bring them in those two pans looked too bad so I left them at home. I suppose it was either watering problems (neglect) or possibly over fertilized them.

Anyway have fun and experiment.

P.S. - 6 CF of perlite will be used up in no time. Buying it in that size saves a lot of money in the long run. It's hard to find but worth it if you ask me. A big bag might last me a couple of years if I dabble in propagation. If I got serious about propagation then I'd probably go through a bag every couple of months.

Any plastic cover will help - here is a salad bowl cover put over Challenger and some earth stars for example from last winter. This year I placed a small drinking cup (6 oz.) over a cut leaf of Peter Sharp on a tray of perlite and the whole leaf is not covered - it is rooted but no pups yet.

I think I read somewhere that you should have 2 to 3 nodes when rooting canes. Brad Thompson's site gives excellent advice when it comes to rooting canes (and other types as well). He does mention that a node will not produce a shoot where it bloomed - that is very interesting.

http://www.bradsbegoniaworld.com/prop.htm

Thank you for the pictures, they really help. Would I need the undertray if I don't care about the mat getting wet?
I think I'm going to have to get more serious about propagation. I'm joining the Buxton, Ma branch of ABS, and they would like me to grow some plants for their sales. They are especially interested in Corliss Engle, but she's still a baby. I wonder if it would be worth buying rooted cuttings from North Carolina Farms and growing them on (I'd chance the unrooted cuttings, but it's 600 minimum).

No you don't need a second tray if you don't mind water dripping out.

I don't use a second pan outdoors because I never know when it might pour and I don't want the cuttings to drown.

Indoors I like a drip tray for everything although some large pots don't get a drip tray so I stock up on pans each year since some are used for propagation and old drip trays need replacing when they start rusting out. I hate it when water is dripping on lights below.

If you have a market for that many cuttings I would go for it. Home Depot had a bunch of cane begonias two years ago and I'm confident they came from NC farms. Very well grown and very affordable - $4 for an 8 inch pot. I bought several different ones. I just wished they would do that each year but I suppose there isn't insane people like me to scoff them up.

Now the two methods that work for me are the perlite in the cake pan as Butch mentioned. Also using a jar of water. I have no luck with propagating the wedge cutting of Rexes or leaves in a baggies. They just crash and burn.

I think if I had some step by step instructions on rexes and the baggie method there could be a better chance for some success.

My first experiment success I tried was B. Challenger. The Challenger was given to me and I bought one from our annual plant sale this year. So, there was enough to go around to try it. Experiment was very successful. Now I try to put a leaf in the perlite when there is something new in my collection for insurance. There are old time favorites that I put a leaf in perlite or water too.

Now the canes I give them a haircut for the winter and put those in water. I placed for the first time two weeks ago some canes in my perlite horizontally. They have alot of roots and new leaves on them today.

Hillbilly_Gran I am going to check out the link about the rex leaf. Thank you.

After careful review. There is alot of input on this subject on this link:

http://www.begonias.org/SOS/SOS_10.pdf

Thank you for suggesting it.

Hey Mary, I guess you saw who wrote that article and my part is further down on the page when I did the propagation presentation for our group a year or more ago. I thought you were at that one. We gave Rekha a few minutes to show the paper towel method.

I tried the wet paper towel trick and I don't care for it but it doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a try. I just find it dries out too fast for me and also starts growing mold. I like what Jan said - find a method that works for you because what works for you may not work for someone else and vice versa.

Happy New Year everyone!

I was just going to grow the rooted cuttings and then donate them to the branch's plant sale. But there is a 4 tray minimum on rooted cuttings, so that means I'd have 200 plants of 8 varieties. Even if I kept back 10 for myself of each one, that's a heck of a lot of plants for a sale. Phew, talking myself out of it...
Butch, I have a question on your article:
You write:

Depends on how hot the bottom heat is. That was just an observation by more than one person besides me at the time. For a very cool GH bottom heat might be good. For a warm room it seemed to have a negative effect on cuttings and wasn't really needed.

If you had a large number of cuttings you could divide them in half and run an experiment and report your findings to the ABS (and DG) on whether bottom heat is a good thing, a bad thing, or didn't make a noticeable difference.

It's kind of like the running argument on a lot of threads about grow lights vs. standard shop lights - is the extra cost really worth it? I think it boils down to personal preferences.

Interesting information. Will try some of these experiments.
Thanks,
Elaine

I have the bottom heat at 70 degrees. I started new cuttings today in perlite. I didn't cover the canes because they were too tall, but I did put some rhizos in a covered container. If I'm very organized next fall, I can do trays of tip cuttings from the canes as I whack them back for winter storage. And given the fact that I placed an order for 30 more canes from Kartuz, I should have quite a few more plants to trim. Then I can try the experiment. I have noticed that if I just stick broken off branches in pots during the summer, they root with no difficulty.