fall leaves in garden

I'm starting a new TX garden this year -- in clay soil. I did this several years back in MT and each fall we would fill the garden with all the leaves we could find and rototill them in. After several years, I had nice garden soil in Montana.

I was planning on trying the same thing here, but was told the leaves wouldn't decompose over our short winter. . . I am very disappointed. So, as my husband has managed to confiscate every bag of leaves in a 10 mile area, I have no choice! We bought a shredder yesterday and he is having a blast chewing up those close to 200 bags of leaves. We are spreading them on the 1200 sq/ ft. garden with a bit of sand (close to 2 yards) and rototilling them in.

Do you think we need to add anything to this to help it decompose over the winter so my new garden will manage to grow and not compete with it next spring. I have some spoiled hay and was wondering about laying that on top to help keep it a bit warmer so the worms will stay close to the surface and do their job in the colder months.

Any thoughts? Experince? Advice?

I think what you are doing is great, for faster decomposition you could mix in some manure or cotton seed meal or alfalfa meal, something with a higher nitrogen content, but it is not absolutely necessary.
The hay mulch is a good idea to keep the soil moist and control erosion.
Good luck with your garden, you are on the right track.
Josephine.

I lived in Fort Worth most of my life and had a garden for at least 15 years. I made a compost pile for and also just plowed hundreds of bags right into the garden. As the leaves break down they will rob nitrogen from the soil, so composting first is best but get it in any way you can. I will break down before Spring. Organic mater breaks down faster in clay than any other soil. I still collect leaves and compost and the most important thing to remember get all you can get. I counted one year in Fort Worth and it was somewhere around 6,000 bags and the compost pile was 35 ft. across and 9ft. high. Last year it was 20 ft. X 30 ft. X 6 ft. high. As anyone will tell you our place is a jungle and we use less water every year. Remember, get all you can get your hands on.

Wow Ken! I didn't know you were such an avid composter, congratulations to you on your beautiful organic garden.

I'm a pretty good little leaf scavenger, too, but Dang! 6000 bags! The Champ!


I guess I'm missing the connection of why a shorter winter would interfere with decomposition. Wouldn't that be better? (And teehee "short", btw - compared to Austin Wichita Falls is practically the north pole.) Like the worms, the decomposition processes won't go, or will go very slowly when it's cold. If you're tilling it in, there wouldn't be significant heat generated, like a hot compost pile. So for most of a long winter, the leaves would just be sitting there?


Anyways, I'd agree, even if there is a nitrogen shortage this first year, you're building soil for the rest of the future. I wouldn't suggest your husband to slow up with the leaves at all.

Have you looked at a nitrogen-fixing cover crop? The ag agent up there could probably fill you in real quick on what's used locally. Then till that in in the spring, too.

For the last 2 years I haven't tilled at all. I just spread leaves and horse manure around my garden at random and I haven't had as many weeds, I have a lot more earthworms, and I now can dig much deeper.

If you want your leaves to decompose faster, you must grind them up into smaller pieces. Someone people put the leaves into a garbage can and use a weed wacker. I found this to be messy and not very efficient. I know they sell leaf shredders just for this purpose.

I've heard that pine needles decompose very slowly...might not be good for fast compost. Also oak leaves. Personally , I think live oak leaves go slower than any other oak leaves. Like it's been suggested before, shredding leaves will help. And if you have an organic source of nitrogen, it might help. I think that as long as there is adequate moisture, leaves compost fairly good over the winter, especially if large amounts of leaves (carbon source) can be mixed with large amounts of nitrogen-high materials, to make a hot pile.

This message was edited Nov 30, 2009 8:02 PM

If gretagreenthumb's DH loves to shred and has paid for a shredder then go for it, but if you are tilling leaves into the soil, it is not necessary. Leaves tilled into soil will break down leaves in no time. I tilled in over 200 bags just before Thanksgiving one year and then tilled again just before the first of the year, and I could not tell I had tilled any leaves in at all. I always plant onions on Jan.1 and taters on Valentines day. If you are composting, shredding really speeds things up but it is really labor intensive. In the time it would take me to shred 100 bags of leaves I could be gathering 200 more. When it comes to compost, quantity is more important than quality.

Wow! What a lot of great information.

We were a bit disappointed today, received our soil analysis report. They commented that, "This soil has excessive P & K. Thus compost, manure, grass clippings, and wood products are not recommended. Mulching with straw is okay."

The Phosphorus is 410 (desired is 174). Potassium is 311 (desired is 167). Nitrates were 10 (desired 40). I'm assuming nitrates is how nitrogen is measured. This report came via e-mail. I haven't had a chance to call them.

Funny thing just happened, my husband came in, I had him read all of your responses -- He wants to meet Ken and wonders what size trailer you have for moving 6000 bags. I can my husband now -- our whole back acre will be covered solid in black bags. He's mentioned making a business of composting. ???

Another question Ken -- when you had those huge compost piles, what besides leaves were in them? What was your "green"?

Thanks everyone -- keep the advice coming. I love it!

There was no green. All this talk about so much green to so much brown is only important if you are in a hurry. If you have only leaves and you have the time, it will break down. Leaves in the garden will raise the P and K but only slightly. Manure is high in nitrogen and helps the composting. There are several crops that can raise the nitrogen, Clovers, Peas and beans. Got to go to work, check in later.

This message was edited Dec 1, 2009 9:04 AM

This message was edited Dec 2, 2009 8:49 AM

Along these lines, has anyone left the leaves bagged overwinter? I read that is an easy way of composting. Simply adding some fertilizer to each bag and sealing it. Condensation adds moisture and when left sitting, will turn into a rich compost with out shredding or other encouragement. I've not tried it but wondered if anyone else had.

Yes it works, even without fertilizer added, it just takes a little longer.

I'd be a little attentive to what kind of bags you're using. Some of the plastics will already be disintegrating after a winter's worth of UV, which is super annoying to try to pick out of the leaf bits. If you leave them in the bags, you can use them as windbreaks for tender plants.

I have a few bags of leaves harvested from last fall...the big fat bags are now about half of the original size. Kind of afraid to look inside :) One year I got a few bags of leaves from a friend who had added some "green stuff" weeds or something can't remember but, it was really starting to break down. This was over probably 2-3 month period.

Right on Ken...never enough compost!

We've been having a few colder days, expecting freezes for the next few nights, so I'm using those bags of leaves as insulating blankets for the plants that I still haven't gotten in the ground. Then when it warms up again I plan to plant them with a bit of purchased compost and then layer the leaves on top -- this is virgin clay ground, never before been worked on, at least not to my knowledge. Hopefully by next spring the ground will be prime -- I can dream!

Greta-I'm confused if nitrates are low wouldn't you want to add manure, blood meal or alfalfa meal? I can understand why wood products wouldn't be recommended but compost seems like it would be good. Its the decomposing process that ties up what nitrogen you have. I must have missed something.

Greta, I'd definitely call them about that report. And maybe your county extension office also. The report sounds confusing. The only thing I could think of is maybe the soil has had too much fertilizer in the past, but seems like it would have normal or high nitrogen then.

I do plan to call them tomorrow -- my courosity is getting the best of me. Was gonna call today, but thought hubby had the cell only to find it in my purse this evening. ???

You know, it is hard to ignore all past knowledge of compost being the absolute best for our gardens -- I'm totally confused.

Just when I think I have it figured out someone comes up with some reason to do this or do that. All I know is compost works. I have composted heavily for for about six years here and in places where we have been growing and composting they are in great shape. Our yard is red clay and I mean clay that is so pure in places that you can role it up in balls, bake it in an oven and make marbles. I have had people come up and say " someone sure put you in a good driveway " and I reply, that is where someone took a bulldozer and pushed the topsoil over to make a house pad, this is our soil. Then they look at our yard and say, " how do you get your plants to grow like that ". I started out with about ten Bananas two years ago and now have over a hundred, many over twenty ft. tall. We have grown Brugs for several years and they are heavy feeders. In the past we have used bag fertilizers, Miracle Grow, the recipe and others to push the growth. This has been one of our best years ever and we did not fertilize anything in the ground. Our water use varies, depending on the rainfall but even when it does not rain for a good while we use less water than people we know and they have smaller yards. In the last few years we dig up plants in the Fall and plant again in the Spring. When we dig a hole for the plants, unless it needs to be planted deep, all you see is black, no red clay. When we plant something we do amend the soil as we are planting but then we dump megga amounts of compost in Spring to help with water loss and Fall to help with freeze problems. In the past we have had chickens that help turn the compost under when scratching but when we started the nursery they get on the plant benches and now they must be penned. All I know is composting works.

I totally agree Ken. When we moved into our new house 40 years ago we had a totally empty lot where the topsoil had been scraped down to the subsoil and all we had was gray clay hard as a brick.
But with organic composting methods we have transformed the clay into beautiful black crumbly soil that makes me proud every time I dig in my yard.
Yes, putting all that organic matter in is a lot of work, but we enjoy doing it, and the rewards are amazing.
Josephine.

OO-OO-Ooo Black crumbly soil -- sounds heavenly. . . wonder what color the dirt is in heaven?

Needless to say, we are going to continue to harvest and shred leaves to dump in/on my clay garden. Too much proof that compost works.

I do still plan to call the people about the soil analysis, but they will be at a convention until Monday. Good thing it is going to be too cold to do anything outside for a few days.

I really do appreciate all the input this topic has generated -- love pickin' other people's brain, especially gardeners. Thanks!

Yes, surely there's soil and plants in heaven...otherwise, what would gardeners have to do? Maybe it's miraculous soil that produces perfect plants with no diseases or insect damage.

We collect bagged leaves too. My DH was a master composter so we've tried various composting techniques over the years.

These days, we just dump the leaves around the plants in the fall and spring and let nature do it's magic. We have such good results that way, we don't add on any additional steps or techniques. The plants are tidy looking, weed free, fertilized and hold moisture. I also get seedlings of trees popping up and transplant the FREE TREES. What a bonus.

My son's old home has brick planters out in front. The soil is poor and compacted, barren. I've placed a heavy layer of mulch over the soil and will plant next spring or fall (if he'll let me).

If planting now was important, I'd shovel in ripe compost.

Composting is the best method of weed control. When weeds pop up just throw on another layer of compost.

Since I have a mess of frozen plants in my garden after the last few days I am wondering about cutting the frozen green off and adding it to bags with lots of raked leaves and letting it set until next spring. Do you think that would compost well or make a bag of yuck?

Why bag it, just throw it in a pile. Bags cost $ and they are ugly.

I was wondering if being in a bag might help it compost faster.

One good thing about the summer heat here is I get to make compost faster then any other place I have lived. My problem is finding enough material. I have gotten lazy about bagging the grass clippings so all I have is what comes from my kitchen. Compost does work magic for any type of soil over time. Back home I had lots of fall leaves, maple and one huge oak. It's cold in MI and the season for growing is short. I used to leave piles of leaves in various places and be amazed in the spring when they were nearly broken down. I also left (out of laziness I must admit) black plastic bags filled with leaves and what ever else got raked up in places and in the spring it they were not completely composted but nearly so. Nature always provides the best solutions.
C