An issue I've been pondering lately which I'm sure will draw many differing opinions----What matters most to the hoya collector? A "correctly" ID'd plant or a beautiful plant/flowers without an "official" ID???
I raise this question because sometimes I'm not 100% sure I'm getting an "correctly" labeled plant, but the leaves and flowers are beautiful. On the flip side I've purchased what I thought were "correctly" labeled hoyas from very well known individuals in the field and turns out the flower doesn't look like what they profess on their website.
What do you think?
What matters most to hoya collectors/addicts?
Personally, I would want a correctly ID'd specimen. That is because I grow them mainly for foliage and not for flowers. Contact your seller and voice your concerns, but remember that flower appearance can vary with environment.
Barb
I love foliage as well as blooms, and I love the noids as much as the correctly identified plants. But, what matters most to me is having plants correctly identified. It concerns me that folks who love to propagate and hybridize might not be labeling plants correctly. If a plant is not kept with the exact/correct name, and incorrectly labeled cuttings are passed from one person to another, it can get rather confusing ... at least it seems that way to me.
I'm pretty much open to any hoya I don't have, so I guess its pretty important to me that a hoya be ID'd correctly.
But on the other side of the coin, sometimes its a delightful surprise when it isn't. I recently found out that I already had a hoya that's been on my wish list - H tomatoensis. I had received it from Paul Shirley ID'd as H. camphorifolia. The way I found out what it really is, is that I knew that I had 2 camphorifolias (from different sources) but they were in different parts of my house. I decided to sell one to a friend, so I brought them together to decide which one to let her have... so, she got cuttings from both instead, and I got the "wrong camphorifolia" correctly ID'd from her research.
The way I see it, if I do perchance get a duplicate hoya through a mislabelling, it makes a nice gift or a valuable trade. But without the space to foster little mistakes like that, it can be pretty annoying.
Once a totally non-ID'd hoya it does flower, you're pretty much guaranteed to get a firm ID on it, but again, it can sometimes take many years to get them to flower.
Not that it would ever happen to me up in glorious Canada, but if perchance I saw an unidentified hoya in a store and didn't immediately recognize it, I'd have no reservations about buying it. It just might be one I don't have and I'd kick myself later.
So, I guess a correctly ID'd hoya is very important in the grand scheme of things, but it's not the end of the world if it isn't because eventually it will be ID'd.
Christine
Well...the good news is there will never be quarantee that any hoya (or plant for that matter) will have a 'correct' ID. This is one of the wonderful lessons I learned from David Liddle. Determination is made by matching your plant against the drawings of a person hundred years ago. Huh? It is man's interpretation of man's interpretation (that is NOT a typo)so somewhere down the line we all insist on "correct answer". To know if your plant is correctly ID'd you would have to match the plant, down to the inth-eyelash with the Type Sheet and make your own decision. This is what people like Ted Green, Chris Burton and David Liddle did...and a number of other people as well: Dale Kloppenberg, Torrill and Natalie in Sweden, Alexandre in France, M. Rodda in Italy and a whole bunch of others all over the world. They are starting to use DNA and it is bringing about some interesting revelations.
It doesn't matter to me if the hoya I get has a published name or not. In fact, I love growing out H. sp. XYZ just to see what it is, what it might look like. But, I won't give away a hoya without a name...in as correct as I can tell. If there is a dispute about it...like H. cv. Iris Marie and H. pazie..good example. David Liddle says it is a cultivar that happened in his nursery and Ted says he and Dale found it in the Philippines. Whoa...big difference. I received mine from David and he says it came from his place so that is what I put on the tag. I have another one, H. pazie...and they look identical and I'm waiting to see the two flowers and get someone to do the comparisons of all the sexy parts. It really makes me mad when I pick up a hoya and the tag is faded. When I first started collecting....what a swamp to figure out.
Sometimes the information we are using to ID our mystery plant is wrong. Or confused. OR..it is in error itself. I mean...so can we trust?? Even David Liddle was reluctant to say "that flower is XYZ" because there are so many variables.
So all we can do is try to learn how to verify...if we can.
OH...about that vender who passed off a bogus plant? I'd let them know and find out what happened?
I think I might start labeling mine as: "Possibly" Hoya ___
Lin...it is sort of like asking directions in foreign countries: check with 3 people and take the majority of opinion! I check certain sites like myhoyas.com and I read the descriptions (if they are there) in David's Catagues and Ted Green catalogue, ask a couple of people what they think and 2 of of four are a majority (considering sources, now...kinda helps to find someone who isn't of one side or the other...fairly neutral. Passions run high in the "I am Right" camps...so you listen and do what seems right to you...what makes sense considering everything.
OK, need to ask Carol the expert a follow up question....Can the "same" hoya bloom in different colors for different people depending on how it's grown? acidity, amount of water, etc?
Geesh, I typed a long post earlier here and must have lost it! Grrr ... I hate when that happens!
LOL, maybe though, the computer is trying to tell me I talk to much?!
Carol: I had to laugh about your "I am Right" statement, regarding some people and how passionate they are about being right! There are a lot of folks who have to be right all the time, or feel that their way is the only way. I've always heard about Type A and Type B personalities and I'm not exactly sure what that means. Some folks are a lot alike while others just seem to be so different and their personalities really clash! My mother used to say two "alike" personalities will always clash but I don't really agree with that. My youngest sister and also my best friend have the same types of personalities, love the same things and we get along great, never argue or have spats. My husband and I are totally different, personality wise, he tends to always want to be in control and we clash at times. Years ago, he used to (in jest) say: "I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong!" I still tease him about that when we are "discussing" something and can't agree.
Back on subject Lin!! (see, I do tend to ramble don't I?)
Re: labeling ... It's hard to know what's up sometimes. Last year I bought a cutting of H. acuta from the DL order and the name has now been changed to H. amoena. What's up with that? When googling for pictures, I found the foliage on both does look identical, although I guess a lot of Hoya foliage does. If Carol hadn't mentioned the name change, years from now I would still have had my plant labeled IML 0079 H. acuta, and maybe even arguing with someone over it, because the DL label is still attached.
HAHA - Hoyaqueen...FAR from being an expert here!!! But I did jump in with both feet when I started because I hate looking stupid. Should have chosen something other than hoya!!
Yes...the same hoya CAN bloom different colors (usually does not change laterally from yellow to red but generally shades of the same color and sometimes pink to white, yellow to white etc.). Lot's depends on the soil, temperature, minerals in the water, amt. of light, type of fertilizer. I have one clone of cv. Ruthie from which I got all my plants, and it blooms from solid pale yellow to rust and yellow. Age of the plant, age of the bloom, first blooming(?)... Leaves can be deceptive as well as far as size, color etc. H. vitiensis comes in a mauve flower and there is a yellow flower - who knew? H. imperialis can bloom deep deep burgundy red to pale pink (and there is a yellow form and a white form).
Flowers, tho' have constants: shape of pollinia and shapes of other internal organs, size and shape of sepals. Leaves will also have 'constants' in the shape of the tip and the base; if the margins are recurved, the venation. While some of the leaves may NOT conform, the majority of them will.
There are 'families' of hoya, or 'sections' if you will, that are more varied than others such as the H. acuta/parasitica complex. This includes lots of species which vary considerably and it is hard to pin them down. The H. pottsii group is also complex. For us non-professional taxonomists it's a good idea to understand what 'complex' you are dealing with so you don't hve to compare your plant to 300 to 400 hoya out there. Mark Randal dedicated 2 issues of STEMMA to the explanation of these sections... very good information. The 'sections', of course, are man's interpretation and classification based on flower formation and other basic qualifications. While I could never ID anything from a pollinia or a sepal, I have tried to learn enough to keep me out of alot of trouble.
Just as in life...there are no absolutes! Another good reason to keep data on where hoyas come from originally...and to narrow it down to suppliers you trust. Without David we are going to be in a world of hurt...but there are still some good taxonomists out there...and comparing opinions is a good way to keep out of a really deep swamp.
Carol
I rather like named plants, but the hunt for a real name is always fun with the DG crowd, but the real treasure for me is always finding a cheaply priced big box plant that is worth 10x as much. Well maybe not 10x, but you get my drift, like a nice full pot of DS-70 for $10, or Adenium obesum juveniles for $2. Or a cactus club Hoya publicalyx for $2 as nobody knew what it was, and besides, its only a Hoya! Which is what was said to me when I bought it.
As to the proper naming convention with Genus/species, it is Hoya cf smackavelli if you think it is the species smackavelli. ;-)
This message was edited Oct 26, 2009 1:07 AM
Thanks Carol and everyone else who responded!
I like the plants themselves more than the names. I do keep their proper names on them in case of a trade. When I show someone a Hoya I point out the beautiful leaves or the flowers, I don't mention their names. Unless they ask of course.
For me, a correctly ID'd Hoya is the most important. I dont have that many, but like to know for sure what I have. I also prefer unique and pretty foliage to flowers.
For me, it really is important to know the names of what I have living here in my house.
To that end, I will be asking for an ID when this NOID Hoya blooms. It is beautifully variagated with pink on new growth stems and was given away free to folks at the entrance to the Icheon Rice Festival. So I'm pretty sure that it is not some "valuable" kind, but it is so pretty anyway. I have narrowed it down (LOL) to one of 5 different ones. Time will tell, until then it's name is NOID.
JB...put it up, the new growth and the plant...we can probably help.
Well, what are you all going to do, who have to have the correct name for a hoya, if there isn't one? Just wondering.
Today I had a visit from Margie Stone...one of the 'dinosaurs' of the hoya world who was collecting hoyas way back when St. Peter was a Corporal. The search and/or the insistance of "the correct name" has caused so many horrible battles, fights, name calling, reputation smearing etc. that those who have managed to retain an interest in hoyas no longer care. Not worth the grief...too many horrible memories. They keep the name it was given as and enjoy the plant for what it is.
Just passing this on....
Carol: I agree. Life is way too short for arguing, name calling etc. over who's right and who's wrong about the correct name of a plant. I'm getting old and would rather not expend my energy on trivial, negative stuff. I know sometimes personalities clash and people can get really nasty but in my opinion there's enough turmoil in the world as it is. I buy a plant because I like the looks of the foliage and I enjoy the anticipation of seeing a plant mature and hopefully bloom! ^_^
I try my best to learn the exact name for a plant but if there is any doubt at all as to the correct name, I will label it: "possibly" Hoya such and such or "looks like" Hoya such and such, or "similar to Hoya such and such. If I don't even know which one it might be or it might look like I just label it Hoya.
I've learned so much about Hoya's on this forum and do appreciate the knowledge you all share! I am still sometimes astounded at how many different Hoya's there are! And, to think when I joined DG three years ago I only knew of one (Hoya carnosa Rubra (Krimson Princess)!! ^_^
Ah, but a NOID makes such a nice discussion, how boring would the forums be if all plants were accurately named.
Too true, when DH gets back with the camera, I'll try to take a pic of my pretty one and see if it is recognisable.
OK...breakfast clubbers, he is a NOID. Anyone have a clue?
LOL, I know it's a Hoya and it is gorgeous!!
It was mislabeled and that much I knew. The leaves look like H. lamingtoniae but the flowers don't at all. BIG mystery!!!
No it's not, do as other dealers: H. lamingtoniae cv 'Aloha'. ;-)
I won't do that!!!!
I got it from DL labeled H. sp. 1282. Not long after I knew it wasn't that , because sp. IML 1282 was affinis wayettii or kentiana (pick your poison). So i held on to it and ..... POW.....blown out of the water. I love it .... an orphan in the world of names....
Good for you, Aloha! I was only joking, as NOID Hoyas are something most should know I have no business chiming in on.
I often will pick a hoya based on the folliage more than the flower myself......but with some of the ones with beautiful flowers I do tend to be obsessed and "must" have them....which is why my entire collection is out of control. Come spring I'm thinning out......I can't keep up with all of them! I just happen to hate it when someone professes it to be hoya "xyz" and it turns out to be hoya "abx" instead......I put a lot of time and care into my hoyas, then you get it to bloom FINALLY and are like "what the hell is this?!?!" LOL! =)
Carol....if you don't have any room for the NOID, please, send it my way! LOL!
D
Hoyaqueen121: If you do decide to thin out your collection in the spring I hope you will consider putting them up for sale on the DG Marketplace: http://davesgarden.com/products/market/
OH...no worries AD... Some day I will find a name....
Hi Lin...yes, I will definately use the DG marketplace! I want them to go to a good home! Thanks for the link!! =)
Carol, I think you should name it H. thebeauty
HA! You 're right...she is a beauty!!! Don't care about the name! But I may put my photo on Mark Stemma Forum and there are really top hoya researchers and collectors on there from Europe...maybe someone would help me find an ID.
Carol: Please let us all know if you do get a proper ID for that beauty! ^_^
H. globulifera? Color's not quite right, but general shape and form look very similar....
SR
By George, I think she's got it!!!! I looked it up and it even said it was often confused with H. lamingtoniae. Thanks so Much, Shelley!!!! Remind me please, in the spring, to send you a cutting!!!! What a gem you are!!!!
Wow!!! I'm almost NEVER right!!! I'm so glad....I remembered globulifera because I wanted it really badly and actually ordered it in last year's D. Liddle order (the one that got hung up in customs and sprayed within an inch of its life) and of course it died and then I just never re-ordered it...but I've always loved it...I WILL remind you in the spring and if you have a cutting to spare then I would love it :-) Thanks...
Shelley