My DH had a bout with salmonella a few weeks ago and we couldn't figure out where it came from. We had been out to eat with friends and we all had the same thing (clams and crab dip) and no one else got sick. The infectious disease specialist said that milk and egg products were often at fault, leading me to wonder whether I needed to be more careful with my processing of eggs. We have raised chickens and eaten and sold their eggs for probably thirty or more years with no problems, so I've never really thought about this issue. But what do you all do about making sure that everything is clean and safe to eat?
Salmonella?
I think it is possible for several people to eat salmonella contaminated food and only some to be affected. We all have different powers of immunity. Don't blame your eggs yet. Don't you all eat them too?
Of course. And we usually don't eat any with cracks or dings but feed them to the dog, unless I'm going to be cooking them fairly well in a scrambled egg dish. But I couldn't figure out where he would have gotten exposed to salmonella so I wondered about the eggs, and whether I was doing enough to make sure they were safe. I had breakfast with a friend who was raised on a chicken farm, and they always ate the cracked eggs because they sold the good ones. That was many years ago, though, and maybe salmonella wasn't so prevalent then.
Well there are many strains of samonella, and once you have one of them you will not get it again. So it easily could have been the food even though only he got sick. Often a healthy person will get it and not really feel the effects either. A frien of mine was tested for a study (his job subjects him to it) and they found that he has had 22 different varieties by checking his blood. I know I have had it more than a few times, it is most often like a mild flu but if your immune system is weak, or you are stressed and not getting enough rest, you are more prone to feel the effects.
That's interesting, Lotsalilys! I didn't know that. I'm reading a book right now which incidentally mentions that the wife had a bad case of salmonella many years ago and now is afraid to eat seafood because that could trigger another attack - as though her first episode made her more susceptible to it. But since it's a book about French wines they didn't go into any more detail...
Hi greehouse: I thought it was very interesting that a food specialist would put the finger on dairy and egg products. Seafood is by far one of the greatest culprits for salmonella. Wasn't that what you went out and had for dinner. I love seafood products but I never eat it in the resturant, cause I don't know how it's been handled and cooked. My dear wife cooks ours. It seems to me that someone is jumping the gun. You are a common sense person and I know you know as much about how to handle eggs as any of us. I don't believe it is the eggs. I would suspect the seafood, but I am biased, I would research salmonella and then take a look at your personal eating habits to best determine what you think. Eggs PFFFT.
Hay, the clams were bought at a local clam shack where the hostess had gotten them many times before, and she steamed them herself. The crab dip was made by another guest, so I don't know where it came from, but no one else was bothered by it. Our family doctor says that DH may have gotten the one bad clam, but when we suggested that to the infectious disease guy he said that seafood wasn't typically involved. Maybe it isn't in the specific form of salmonella that he turned out to have, if there are different types.
Oh well. It sounds like no one else is sterilizing their eggs before consumption, either!
I've gotten salmonella from store bought eggs, so it's not just 'home-grown'. It's not a fun thing to have :(
I see your point about the seafood, that is no one else got sick, but that could be said also for the eggs, no one else got sick. I don't know dear. I just know as you do, cause you lived out here, we have constant warning here about eating the local clams and oysters due to salmonella poisoning.
i got really bad food poisoning from someone's cooking.. 10 people were there that night. I'm the only one that was sick 24 hrs later. I really think it depends on the person. My mom has a compromised immune system & if we eat teh same exact thing, like share a plate.. she will get sick (if anyone's gonna get sick) 9 times out of 10 before I do. I've gotten sick off of bad food in every form.. except eggs. We have our own & I get eggs from the neighbors. We use the cracked ones. Cookies, fried eggs, casseroles ... we put them where ever we need them. Never have i gotten food poisoning off of eggs that were raised at home. But then maybe i'm just blessed in that I haven't yet. I really think it depends on the person. How they are feeling that day, stress, exhaustion, immune system & their own stomach among a few other things. Thanks for the lesson on salmonella tho.. i didn't realize that once you get one you can't get it again. Didn't know there was so many different strains of it. I will have to study up on that.
Hay, I never knew we weren't supposed to eat the local clams on Lummi. We used to go out on minus tides and collect them and were never the worse for it.
Greykyttyn, interesting about your salmonella experiences. My DH does have a compromised immune system, so that may explain it. I'm just trying to figure out how to be careful so it doesn't happen again, but I guess since we don't know the source, that's going to be hard to do.
I don't know for sure whether a case of salmonella will protect you against further illness from the same type. Apparently there are a lot of different salmonella bacteria varieties. This website doesn't talk about acquired immunity, so I wonder:
http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_listing/salmonellosis_gi.html
If you thoroughly cook the food - whatever it is - and eat it promptly thereafter it will not give you salmonella or any other bacterial infection.
That's not necessarily true. Once my mother opened a bulging can of soup, it spurted out when she opened it. She figured if she let it boil several minutes it would be ok. She was in the hospital overnight from salmonella.
We don't thoroughly cook eggs, though, if we're just frying them easy-over.
Yikes - a bulging can is always a danger sign! Your poor mother!
The bulging can was probably not salmonella.
This site summarizes the relative risks of free-range/cage-free vs. battery raised chickens.
http://blog.nutritiondata.com/ndblog/2008/02/organic-free-ra.html
And this site gives a general discussion of salmonella food poisoning.
http://www.healthvermont.gov/prevent/salmonella/Salmonella.aspx
According to the latter you can kill Salmonella by cooking the food thoroughly. You can even catch it from contaminated water or another person who has it on their hands. So I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it was the eggs--although once a chicken has acquired the bacteria she will continue to produce eggs that are potentially contaminated. You can also get it from handling the droppings.
No matter how clean we try to keep the nest boxes, sometimes some droppings get on the eggs. And ours are free-range hens. I guess the thing to do is be careful, wash things well, and keep your fingers crossed!
The first reference was interesting, Catscan, but she spelled "yolks" wrong.....Somehow that always taints a source's credibility for me slightly, although what she said made sense.
If you google "salmonella chickens free range" you get a lot of hits, g_g. The consensus is that the problem is much worse with battery birds--which makes sense.
It also sounds like it is ubiquitous in the environment--so there is no way to avoid it entirely. I think pet reptiles and the amphibians are one of the most dangerous sources in the home. Children play with them and then put their fingers in their mouths...yuck.
Did anyone hear the NPR report about bacterial films that build up in shower heads......?
Yes, made me want to go out and buy a new shower head! Has anyone looked into the little kitchen sprayers or ubiquitous faucet aerators? Could they not also be collectors? Let's face it, bacteria are all around us; we just need to rely on a healthy immune system.
Catscan, I've been a lot more careful about washing my hands after deporting box turtles from my garden these days, too! They love to meander in and check out the buffet.
I have heard about the bacterial films in showerheads and in kitchen sinks and on counters. It's pretty gross. On the other hand, studies (the famous "studies" conducted by the ubiquitous "they"!) seem to indicate that kids who are allowed to get dirty and ingest a certain amount of bacteria end up with much healthier immune systems and fewer problems with allergies and diseases like MS. It does make sense.
I've heard, g_g, there are also suspicions that the "risk" with vaccines may actually be, not the vaccines themselves (excluding allergies to something used to produce them), but that protection from so many childhood diseases prevents a child's immune systems from "tuning up", leaving them more vulnerable to auto-immune diseases and allergies. It is a difficult call. I've seen whooping cough and it is not something you would ever wish your child to experience, let alone diphtheria or polio.
I am a great proponent of dirt:0)
Hi porkpal! Did you hear the part about plastic supporting bacterial colonies better than metal? We use plastic in our greenhouse misting systems and they always fill up with algae because of light filtration. The plastic is actually much rougher than you would expect from looking at it.
On the NPR website someone asks if copper fixtures might not be healthier, since copper is generally antimicrobial. Made me think of splurging on a nice copper shower head. It would cost a fortune though. Maybe, if the copper theory holds up, someone should start a business producing copper lined shower heads for people with compromised immune systems.
Bulging cans most often cause botulism (Clostridium botulinum species) which is quite serious indeed and often requires hospitalization. Of course, if the hospital did tests and said it was Salmonella, then they should know what they're talking about. Personally my first thought with a bulging can is botulism.
I, too, am a great proponent of dirt. I played in it extensively as a child and although I had to wash my hands before eating, of course, we didn't have all these antibacterial wipes and such that they have now. I was a very healthy child and have no allergies of significance. I think there is a lot to be said for playing in the dirt!
Moxon, 'twas not my DH with the bulging can but LoreenH's mother. We don't use the contents of bulging cans around here. My DH only ate clams, crab dip, and of course our eggs. As I mentioned, we do have a plenitude of box turtles around here and the occasional snake, but we don't handle the latter.
I have also heard that the antibacterial wipes are no more effective than plain-old-soap-and-water...
Sorry G-G, I should have been more precise. I was directing that comment to Loreen....but I didn't say so. ooops.
As for your DH, it certainly seems odd to think that it would have been from the seafood that everybody ate, but admittedly there could have been a single bad clam or something similar, but even then, being in the dish with all the others, I would have thought it would have been more than 1 person affected. I think it's hard to trace the source of these things without multiple people being ill from the same source.
We have never had incidents of salmonella (or any other food poisoning) from our eggs, and I'm not hyper about cleaning them. But, I always cook them fully. I don't like runny middles. And (GASP!!!) I even keep my eggs on the counter, not in the fridge. They are always used within a couple of weeks and in Europe, it's pretty standard to keep eggs outside of the fridge. Never had a problem, so I doubt it's your eggs...but who knows?
Also--if you can get it from drinking water or contact with someone who has not washed their hands thoroughly--it would be a jump to blame home-raised eggs....although that does remain one of many possibilities.
Claire,
I agree, it was some kind of food poisoning; I had just recalled what my mother said. I don't know much about food poisoning other than I had it once and I've never been so sick in my life.
I very much agree with your comment about playing in the dirt. I was (and still am) out playing in the dirt while I was growing up (been gardening since I could walk). Even today I rarely get sick, other than a cold every year. I've never gotten flu shots until recently. One of my sisters, on the other hand, stayed in the house most of her childhood. She gets sick quite easily, has been on antibiotics off and on most of her life (I've been on them 4 times in my adult life). She is also suseptible to respiratory illnesses, I'm sure partly due to staying in the house with our chain-smoking father. Even today she hates to get her hands dirty, she even wears gloves when mixing food with her hands (she can't stand getting anything under her fingernails). Funny how very different siblings can be. I love the feel of dirt on my hands especially after being in the house all winter.
I really wasn't sure what the proper way to wash the eggs off was. I spray my eggs with the veggie wash stuff I get at the store and run them under cold water. I then dry them off and put them in the egg crate then into the refrigerator. Is there a better way to clean the eggs?
We change the straw in the nesting boxes every day or so.
We keep big bottles of Germ-X everywhere.
Eggs should be washed in water that is WARMER than they are to prevent bacteria from penetrating the porous shell.
THanks for telling me that porkpal. I'll be sure to change what I'm doing.
I had read that, too. It's counter-intuitive but seems to be what all the experts say.
It is because the pores of an egg are "fixed" unlike skin pores which open wider with warmth.
I guess there is a lot of controversy or debate about whether or not to wash eggs or how to do it. I don't know who to believe now. Here are a few articles or snips about various opinions on egg washing.
InstructionsThings You'll Need:
towel
water
bleach
egg cartons
soft rag
Step 1First gather all your eggs that need to be washed. Place the basket of eggs on the counter next to your kitchen sink. Lay a dry towel on the kitchen counter - to lay the wet eggs on. Fill one side of your sink half way up with warm water. Add two tbl spoons of bleach to the water.
Step 2Add your eggs to the water GENTLY. If you drop them in they will hit each other and crack. So gently lay them in. We do two dozen at a time. Once you have them in the water, look them over. If any of them float to the top of the water THROW THEM OUT! That means they are going bad. I don't take chances with them.
Step 3After you have removed any floaters, pick one egg at a time and using your soft wet rag, gently clean each egg. The bleach in the water will kill any harmful germs and makes most city people feel better about eating them. Once you have washed any dirt off, rinse and lay on your dry towel.
Step 4Once the eggs are all washed and dryed on your towel you can then place them in egg cartons and refrigerate. They will last for several weeks. We sale our eggs in town. Going door to door with them is a big hit. Most people enjoy eating fresh eggs but never take the time to find them. So you can enjoy them all yourself, or sale for a little extra money to buy feed with.
http://www.ehow.com/how_4845607_wash-store-fresh-yard-eggs.html
Test
Take your eggs on a swim to determine their freshness. A simple bowl of cold water will do the trick. The freshest are those that sink and lie on their sides. A week old egg will tilt up, it's larger end rising because the air pocket inside expands as time passes, and the yolk and white have begun to separate. Week-old eggs are fine for eating, and peel perfectly when hard-cooked. At two weeks old, an egg's air pocket has expanded all around the inside of the shell, and the larger end will point directly up when in water. If your egg floats, it's usually 3 to 4 weeks old and more than ready to be thrown out!
Egg Washing
Don't wash your eggs unless you're about to eat them! These nifty little packages come with their own coating that keeps bad microorganisms at bay. But do wash them before eating and be sure to keep raw egg away from anything you might put in your mouth. Salmonella is something you must watch out for, although some organic farms do test for it these days.
Keeping Eggs
A fresh egg stored at 75o F loses almost 50 percent of its nutritional value in one day. The perfect temperature for eggs is around 40 o F with around 40% humidity. Store eggs with the small side down, allowing the yolk to settle into the egg white which has antibacterial properties.
Pasture raised hens have orange yolks. Find cage free egg producers in the Eat Well Guide. Photo by Jason Houston.
Eggs-tra Gorgeous
Eggs make for excellent facials. Beaten egg white tightens and smoothes the skin, while egg yolk is loaded with vitamin A which tightens pores and clears out imperfections (but don't mix the two together!) Egg yolk also makes for a great hair conditioner. And egg white can be whipped and used as a natural mousse and a stain remover!
Grow Your Own!
Imagine your very own chickens, clucking when you come to feed them your kitchen scraps, serving up the freshest of fresh eggs every morning in time for breakfast. Keeping a couple chickens with no rooster is relatively inexpensive and easy, something you can even do in an urban center.
Fun Facts
A hen requires 24 to 26 hours to produce an egg. Thirty minutes later, she starts all over again.
White shell eggs are produced by hens with white earlobes. Brown shelled eggs are produced by hens with red earlobes. The eggs are nutritionally the same. Since brown egg layers are slightly larger birds and require more feed, the price of brown eggs is generally higher than that of white eggs.
Egg yolks are one of the few foods that naturally contain Vitamin D.
If an egg is accidentally dropped on the floor, sprinkle it heavily with salt for easy clean up.
To tell if an egg is raw or hard-cooked, spin it! If the egg spins easily, it is hard-cooked, but if it wobbles, it is raw.
Super Nutritious
Local, organic free-range eggs are super rich in vitamins and minerals. Watch out for the industrial eggs which are significantly lower in nutrients. Folic acid, vitamins B6 and B12, calcium, zinc, sulfur, magnesium, carotenoids, and choline are just some of the super healthy things to be found in eggs. Some organic farmers are offering Omega-3 eggs which are laid by birds fed organic flax seed. Egg protein is the most nutritious readily-available, complete protein known- it is the standard of comparison for other proteins. All of the essential amino acids (building blocks of protein) are present in such generous quantities that egg protein may be used to supplement other foods. Even with all these nutrients, a large egg contains only 80 calories.
Dodge Disease
Sustainable farming practices significantly reduce the risk of pathogens such as E.coli in food as well as potentially reducing the risk of food poisoning. You are also reducing the risks of consuming antibiotic-resistant bacteria by eating organic local eggs.
http://www.sustainabletable.org/features/articles/eggs/
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This is a perpetual issue. There are believers on both sides of this question. We have a small egg business (about 300 layers right now with a couple hundred juveniles not yet in-lay). I am a 'washer'. I believe it makes the most sense. Here's why.
1) To my konwledge, there is no rational evidence that bloom protects eggs from bacteria. I have never seen any reliable, scientific studies that indicate that bloom has any anti-bacterial properties. Also, you know bloom doesn't seal the egg because water still evaporates from the egg (if it didn't, the air cell couldn't develop as it should during incubation).
2) Even if the egg looks clean, it comes through the same orifice that the poop does. The egg touches the same anal orifice that the feces comes through. So, you know there must be fecal bacteria on the egg, even if you can't see any poop. It is the same as taking an egg and touching it to your own rectum. Afterwards, it may still look clean, but it isn't. Although the egg doesn't come from the bird's intestinal tract, it did come out the same final opening.
3) Lots of people don't wash eggs and haven't gotten sick. Yes. Lots of people smoke and don't get cancer. That doesn't mean it's OK to smoke. When I was a kid, there was a boy we called "Roger Doo-Doo". He once ate a piece of dog feces. Hence the name. He didn't get sick either. But, I don't recommend dining with Roger. All that dust you stir up in the chicken house when you're cleaning it out - you breathe it - there's fecal matter in that dust.
Washing eggs is a matter of personal choice. It's a lot like personal hygene. It's how you prefer to live.
http://www.the-coop.org/wwwboard/discus/messages/2/5585.html
i called the dep of agri today to see what i needed to do to sell eggs
ANSWER--keep at 40 to 45 dagees
do not need to wash (if soiled, scrape with knife
and or sandpaper to clean)try not to remove bloom.
if u wash(MUST use atlaest 120dagree water AND eggwash
that kills gems(just water opens poors lets
stuff into egg shell)dry right away with clean towel.
CAUTION if using used cartons eggs can get germs from
the cartons.