Morning Glories: Becky's garden - Summer 2010, 1 by beckygardener

beckygardener wrote:
Thanks so much, Dany and Jackie!

Dany - I am not surprised at the naming by the "public" of many of the Kyushu University hybrids! Was the vine crossed until it became an actual hybrid? That is my question. Or is it still just a cross that is not stable? If it is a hybrid, then it would be fair to say than the Kyushu University created that cultivar regardless of the name, right? And they should be recognized for it as such!

That brings up a real dilemma about ethics. The Japanese universities and even some of the seed companies that created those new hybrid cultivars should be recognized for their hard work, right?! I have heard that seed companies steal from each other. This happens all the time in other countries including the USA. They get seeds from their competitors. They rename it and sell them as their "new" hybrid. Under a different name, many buyers really believe it is a new cultivar. At least until they grow it out and discover it's the same vine as the hybrid company (who created it in the first place). How ethical is it to make a profit off another company's hard work? AND ... is it dishonest for commercial seed companies to deceive their customers? I sure have to wonder.

I think if I was a customer and saw a new cultivar name, that I might be tempted to buy it, but ... I'd be pretty mad to find out that I already had seeds for it or had already purchased it a year earlier under the original name. I basically just wasted my money on a duplicate seed pack. And I sure would think twice about buying from that company again. I'd be afraid that I might get cheated again on another seed pack of a different cultivar.

Here are some Japanese Commercial Seed Company websites that seasonally sell MG seeds: (You'll need the google translator program to find their listing of MGs.) How many of these sell MG seeds that are the same cultivar/hybrid but going by a different name and what were they called originally and who was the hybridizer?
tohokuseed.co.jp
atariya.net
takii.co.jp
Sakata.co.jp

This activity goes on in many countries including America! The renaming and claiming of plant cultivars is probably more common than we know. Which is probably why some hybridizers patent their cultivars. Can't blame them ... they did all the work!!! It is definitely an ethical dilemma. And I guess it comes down to the profits that these companies make from all those seeds...

There is a lot of work involved in creating a hybrid. It can take 3-4 grow-outs from the original vine: F1, F2, F3, and maybe an F4. It could take 2-4 years depending on what kind of climate/zone you live in. I live in a tropical zone, so I can get 2 sometimes 3 grow-outs in a year. And sometimes I grow them indoors in my window over the winter months. So I am really fortunate to have the right climate for MG vines. But not everyone does. Though I do believe Japan has a similar climate as we do here in Florida.

Here is a DG thread on hand-pollinating MG blooms: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/732341/ And this is the page in Dr. Yoneda's website book: http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/Introduction...

So as you can see, there is a lot of clinical and precise work involved when hand-pollinating. My own way is far from precise unless I am working with a partially sterile vine, which affords me the perfect opportunity and I usually take it! But most hybridizers don't have that luxury, and it takes much more work.

I had talked to Karen (gardener2005) about hybridizing. Many of you know about her work with Speckles and Kikyo MG vines:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1015262/
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/989077/
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/989074/

She very kindly gave me a little insight on what it takes to make a hybrid. I hope she doesn't mind my sharing her information. The following is quoted from her:

"Pick two flowers you see things you`d like to combine in one. Like you want a large flower that has the color of another flower. You cross for the F1. F1 stands for filial generation one and you write it without getting carpal tunnel. Then grow your F1 and "tie" (see her method above) to self as many blooms as you can. Then do a grow out. There are some results desired that might require a larger grow out to find them. This is where the culling (removing) comes in handy. You cull out the ones not conforming and it makes room for the good ones you want to keep and it reduces the potential of creating a overcrowded disease and insect problem environment."

And of course, from there I know that you have to repeat those steps by growing out the F2 seeds and culling out all but the vines that are displaying the characteristics that you want in your new hybrid. Then you tie and "self" the vines and then grow out the resulting F3 seeds. Once again growing and culling/removing all vines except the ones that are showing the desirable traits for your new hybrid. An F4 grow-out may be necessary if you are seeing unstable characteristics in any of the vines. The more complex the characteristics, the more grow-outs may be required to get a stable new hybrid.

Note: When I write "self", that means that you have to pollinate the bloom with pollen from it's own bloom or other blooms on the same vine. This helps ensure that the characteristics you want become THE dominate genes so that those traits show up time and time again from any blooms you see on a vine and any seeds you grow from that vine.

But always keep in mind that a recessive gene could show up, which can sometimes be a good thing which might add to the beauty of your hybrid.

Here is a prime example of a recessive gene that seems to show up from time to time in my Silver Wolf vine. This was one of the blooms on it this morning! Very interesting what cultivar might have been used in the creation of Silver Wolf. I would never have thought of a blizzard or striped cultivar having been used.

And your idea about creating a Sazanami x Silver Wolf is a very good one, Dany! I might just have to try doing a cross like that to see what it produces! Thanks for the great idea!

This message was edited Jul 29, 2010 12:36 PM